Denver Broncos Discussion

[jCut]

Broncos are set to interview two head coaching candidates, Greg Williams and Perry Fewell, that use the 43 system. A telling sign of things to come?

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Diehard

He's a good pass rusher from a 4-man front. However, he's terrible at holding the point of attack as a DE in a traditional 4-3 scheme.

The 3-4 is a better fit overall for him, IMO.

i agree. i'm more and more of a mind that he gets moved if we go to a 4-3. he's not an every down DE and he never will be.

what's sad is that i'm not actually sure that our defense is in any worse shape than it was when shanahan got canned. as much as i hate mcdaniels, i think shanny did far more damage to this team.

[Diehard]

Originally Posted by njx9

what's sad is that i'm not actually sure that our defense is in any worse shape than it was when shanahan got canned. as much as i hate mcdaniels, i think shanny did far more damage to this team.

Shanahan destroyed the defense. No question about that. Terrible drafting, DC-as-scapegoat, constant scheme changes.... ugh.

[Diehard]

Originally Posted by jCut

Broncos are set to interview two head coaching candidates, Greg Williams and Perry Fewell, that use the 43 system. A telling sign of things to come?

The 4-3 is a better fit for our talent overall. 3-4 is better for Doom.

That being said, Williams and Fewell both know how to use pass rushers and bring pressure. I'm confident they'd both be able to find ways to use Doom effectively in their schemes.

Of the HC candidates mentioned so far, I like Williams the best. I remember the Redskins playing some good D under him, and he's done well with the Saints despite injuries and some questionable parts.

[DBNYDP]

I still think Doom needs another chance as an every down guy in a 4-3 with some talent around him, and good DC scheming with his weakness in mind.

I would like to point out...that Robert Ayers is a really good prospect at 4-3 DE. And you know the Giants took JPP last year, if Fewell comes in he might take a guy like...Allen Bailey from Miami. The guy is an animal, and if he is developed there he can be special. Plus he might be available in the 3rd at this point..
Something like Ayers/Fairley/Nevis or Veteran/Doom or Bailey and we would have a great starting 4.

Williams defense didn't have the best pieces last year but he still got it done. Very aggressive, and capitalizes on how the other offense needs to match our defense to create turnovers. I'd be happy with him/Fewell. I'm low on Nolan because of the fallout of our defense, and I'm also really high on Rivera, who can do both schemes.

[njx9]

doom just doesn't hold the point on running downs, and at his size, i'm not sure he *can*. which makes the injury even worse this year, because it's unlikely we could even move him at anything close to true value.

i guess i'm just not seeing why we're going to move back to a 43 at this point. we have one good player on defense. why lose that? especially for a coach like williams (17-31 in buffalo).

were it me, i'd bring back nolan to coach the defense, and sort out someone else as HC. and fire xanders immediately. i have no idea why he's still employed.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

I think I might be the worst fan in sports, when it comes to teams. I'm a fan of:

Us(2nd worst in the league)
New Jersey Devils(worst team in NHL by 8 points)
Cleveland Cavaliers
Canada(******* biggest choke of all time. Yes, bigger than us choking our 3 game lead with 3 games to go, and our 6-0 start to finish 8-8. COMBINED)

[Jimmy]

Originally Posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)

I think I might be the worst fan in sports, when it comes to teams. I'm a fan of:

Us(2nd worst in the league)
New Jersey Devils(worst team in NHL by 8 points)
Cleveland Cavaliers
Canada(******* biggest choke of all time. Yes, bigger than us choking our 3 game lead with 3 games to go, and our 6-0 start to finish 8-8. COMBINED)

I say it was the original name change you made. everything went down hill right around the time you got rid of chris, and it keeps getting worse.

[Cunningham]

schefter saying we cancelled/postponed our interview with mularkey. this is interesting...he seemed to be the early favorite for the job. i'm hoping for rivera, but for some reason we haven't expressed interest in him as far as i know.

[Diehard]

Originally Posted by Cunningham

schefter saying we cancelled/postponed our interview with mularkey. this is interesting...he seemed to be the early favorite for the job. i'm hoping for rivera, but for some reason we haven't expressed interest in him as far as i know.

From the stuff the Atl J-C has been posting, it looks like he is out of the running for the job.

I keep hearing rumors that that our top choice is someone who we haven't gotten permission to speak to yet. Perhaps Mularkey got wind of that and decided he didn't want to be a token candidate?

I don't think this is a huge loss.

[Jimmy]

the luck decision obviously sucks. we no longer have the choice of any player we want.

[njx9]

meh. i don't think it changes much. i have to guess bowers or like, green goes first. that still leaves us pretty open.

[Jimmy]

Originally Posted by njx9

meh. i don't think it changes much. i have to guess bowers or like, green goes first. that still leaves us pretty open.

you're right, idk. i guess knowing luck was going #1 was almost like having a #1 pick of our own though. chances are we get our guy.

btw- can't wait to see PP play tomorrow. 8 PM EST. he's really the only guy that we are likely to draft that would fit flawlessly regardless of the headcoach. not sure if drafting a corner is the best way to turn this team around as even Champ himself couldn't get this team where it needed to be even in his prime. but he certainly would be great building block

[Jimmy]

Also, i'm sure you guys know already but in case you don't-
tune into ESPN 7 PM EST tonight. There's some Tebow documentary on.

[49erNation85]

Originally Posted by Jimmy

Also, i'm sure you guys know already but in case you don't-
tune into ESPN 7 PM EST tonight. There's some Tebow documentary on.

I expected more on the documentary .But it was still a fun show to watch just see and learn how much mental crap he had go threw in changing his motion and up to draft day.I was hoping they would have done more of the first two of his starts in Denver was still a good watch.

[Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Tebowfan85

I expected more on the documentary .But it was still a fun show to watch just see and learn how much mental crap he had go threw in changing his motion and up to draft day.I was hoping they would have done more of the first two of his starts in Denver was still a good watch.

it was created way before his first two starts though. filming ended a while ago. i LOVED it. definitely makes me a fan of the guy.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Jimmy

you're right, idk. i guess knowing luck was going #1 was almost like having a #1 pick of our own though. chances are we get our guy.

btw- can't wait to see PP play tomorrow. 8 PM EST. he's really the only guy that we are likely to draft that would fit flawlessly regardless of the headcoach. not sure if drafting a corner is the best way to turn this team around as even Champ himself couldn't get this team where it needed to be even in his prime. but he certainly would be great building block

i dunno about that. for a while, champ was the only thing making the defense even remotely respectable. i have no doubt, for instance, we wouldn't have come anywhere near the AFCCG a few years ago without him.

[Timbathia]

Originally Posted by njx9

i dunno about that. for a while, champ was the only thing making the defense even remotely respectable. i have no doubt, for instance, we wouldn't have come anywhere near the AFCCG a few years ago without him.

For what it is worth (which is probably not much), Woody Paige in the Denverpost believes that Champ will be back with the Broncos. Apparently Champ would come back as long as he doesnt have to take a pay cut and he thinks the Broncos are heading in the right direction.

I only find this interesting as I had thought it was a done deal that Champ would leave.

[DBNYDP]

I just don't think a corner has the impact other guys do. I'd love to take him if he could play safety.
The draft has a lot of good defensive linemen so trading down..

[Jimmy]

Originally Posted by njx9

i dunno about that. for a while, champ was the only thing making the defense even remotely respectable. i have no doubt, for instance, we wouldn't have come anywhere near the AFCCG a few years ago without him.

How are we any better off than back in 2006 if we draft PP and loose Champ, though? Here we are, talking about how we need to put the pieces together, and were looking to essentially construct a team with the same foundation as when we started to plummet.

When I said Champ couldn't get us where we needed to be, I meant winning a Superbowl, not simply being "respectable" as a unit. Champ was the best corner in the game a few years ago, but he couldn't do it alone, and that should tell everyone upstairs that PP won't be able to do it alone either.

Darrent Williams. Kelly Herndon. Dre Bly. Andre Goodman. Perrish Cox.

I think it's become blatantly apparent that no matter how locked down the left side is, teams can just stay away from Champ and pick on #2, even if PP develops into the next #24, we still have to address our front 7. Do we need to address the corner position eventually? Yep, but at this point in time, we all know it's not the most pressing need.

One thing that has remained constant the last few years is that we've had atrocious pass rush. No matter how good Champ plays, we've always had issues on the other half of the field. We've never been the stellar pass defense that you'd expect with him. We've had a few top 10 seasons pass defense wise. Nothing that would make me ooh or ahh.

Back too PP, he will have to work his ass off to touch where Champ was 4 years ago, and even then, we will need a more talented front 7... Having a stud corner is a luxury, but it is nowhere near as important as having a solid front 7, IMO.

I just don't think corner is the most pressing need. Do I think Padlock Peterson or whatever we want to call him is the BPA? Yes, I have him slightly higher than Dareus at this point. I think he's the best corner prospect in years, and I LOVE me a talented corner. But if we take him and don't address the front 7, we're back in 2006 again, with an elite corner and a mediocre to subpar defense.

I will not complain or be upset if we draft him. We'd be getting a future pro bowler. I'd just prefer a stud DL.

[Timbathia]

Originally Posted by Jimmy

I will not complain or be upset if we draft him. We'd be getting a future pro bowler. I'd just prefer a stud DL.

I think the counter-argument though is that it is debatable how much of a stud DL you are getting this year at #2. None of the DL guys this year are as good of a prospect as Suh or McCoy from last year. Will they be dominant in the NFL, or just good? There will also be DL guys available at the start of the second that will make good NFL starters. The question then becomes which combination are we better off with - DL/CB or CB/DL with our first two picks.

[Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Timbathia

I think the counter-argument though is that it is debatable how much of a stud DL you are getting this year at #2. None of the DL guys this year are as good of a prospect as Suh or McCoy from last year. Will they be dominant in the NFL, or just good? There will also be DL guys available at the start of the second that will make good NFL starters. The question then becomes which combination are we better off with - DL/CB or CB/DL with our first two picks.

I think Dareus will be a Suh type talent if he plays 3-4 end. I say Suh because I can't think of a powerful, stud 3-4 DE off the top of my head for w/e reason. BUT I mean it when I say it; I have no clue if the kid is a complete headcase with no work ethic, or if he's really truly got his head on straight. We'll have to wait for the media to expose that, one way or another.

So, maybe we trade down a few spots and grab him. I think he's worth the #2 if it turns out he's a good guy. But... I'd rather stockpile anyway. If he does play 4-3 tackle for us, I truly believe he is a pro bowl level talent coming out, and has the potential to be as good as anyone.

[njx9]

dareus is nothing like suh, and 34 DEs will never have that kind of impact.

now, why is there this false choice? what, we take PP, then go TE, TE, TE the rest of the draft? there are some fantastic values for the 34 from the 2-3 round, imo, and i don't think it's even a little unreasonable to take peterson first, given that he presents a FAR better return on the pick than dareus or fairley ever would.

further, champ made that defense respectable, rather than the worst defense in the league by far. sort of like dumervil did last year. that's a MASSIVE contribution from one guy out of eleven. that means he alone was making other people play better, or at least helping to mask their weaknesses. i don't give a flying **** if the qb just goes the other way. that's like saying, 'i'd rather have jarvis moss, because if we had asomugha or revis, the qb would just throw to someone else'. yes, it's that silly.

if we want to go DL in the first (and stay 34), we trade down. period. there isn't any way any 34 DL has really ever been worth the #2 overall pick. and especially not one who basically took the season off and has lazy red flags all over the place. if we go to the 43 (which i still think would be stupid, but whatever), then you can start talking about a bowers or fairley having #2 kind of value.

either way, i don't see any way this team can gamble the #2 overall pick on a guy who may or may not actually want to try hard. was albert haynesworth amazing? yeah. but only in a contract year. otherwise, he was a massive bust. the kind of bust that would ensure we're picking in the top five for years.

[Jimmy]

Originally Posted by njx9

dareus is nothing like suh, and 34 DEs will never have that kind of impact.

Statistically, they will never have an impact. I don't really care about stats in this situation, because presence wise, they have an enormous impact. Do I care if a corner will make our team a little better than a 3-4 end singlehandedly would? No, not really. Because there are 10 (edit: 10 other) men on the field, and like I said, I don't want to be back in '06, where CB is our strength, with a bunch of questions everywhere else. We can't ignore the front 7 any longer, and the main thing is that taking a CB and putting off the front 7 till round 2 or 3 increases the odds that we won't have a solid front 7 any time soon.

Originally Posted by njx9

now, why is there this false choice? what, we take PP, then go TE, TE, TE the rest of the draft? there are some fantastic values for the 34 from the 2-3 round, imo,

Like I said, going 3-4 round 2 or 3 decreases the odds that we have a solid front 7 any time soon, as opposed to selecting a guy round 1, whether it be trading down or not. IMHO.

Originally Posted by njx9

and i don't think it's even a little unreasonable to take peterson first

I don't think it's unreasonable either. I've expressed my PP opinion serveral times, I think he's the best corner prospect in years. I agree with you and this entire board here.

Originally Posted by njx9

given that he presents a FAR better return on the pick than dareus or fairley ever would.

Awesome to see somebody finally developed time travel.

Originally Posted by njx9

further, champ made that defense respectable, rather than the worst defense in the league by far. sort of like dumervil did last year. that's a MASSIVE contribution from one guy out of eleven.

I'm not looking for individual contributions though, I'm looking for someone to make our defense as a whole better, in the run and the pass game. That's what we need. I think were better off as a unit in 2-3 years with an extra piece in the front 7, as opposed to Champ 2.0. Once again, having an elite CB is a luxury, having a front 7 is a necessity to win in this league. I'd rather address necessity. For me, once again, it's a matter of odds, and odds are have a better front 7 if we take a better prospect.

Originally Posted by njx9

i don't give a flying **** if the qb just goes the other way. that's like saying, 'i'd rather have jarvis moss, because if we had asomugha or revis, the qb would just throw to someone else'. yes, it's that silly.

That's just an attempt to make me look stupid (which you're usually very good at) but it really has nothing to do with what I said.

Seriously though... Jarvis Moss? The biggest bust in Broncos history? At the very least, you could substitute an elite DE in that sentence and still make exact the same point. You may think I'm stupid, I don't know. I'm not Terry Schaivo, though.

Let me *for the final time* reconstruct that sentence for you:
"I'd rather have a solid DE (Jarvis Moss, apparently) because at least that way, we can generate some sort of pressure, whether it be through run defense or pass rush. We both know those two things make it harder for said quarterback to pick apart defenses, defenses that said quarterback would easily be able to pick apart, even with a star corner like Bailey. Sure, we can take a solid DT later, but we can also take a solid corner later. Obviously, PP is dynamic, but I'm convinced Dareus is almost as talented at his respective position.

I agree with you, players like Champ prove it is possible to make a unit look half decent when underneath it all, they suck. However, one more stud DE/DT is one more stud player where we truly need it... If we pull the trigger round 1 as opposed to round 2, we're better off in that sense.

Originally Posted by njx9

if we want to go DL in the first (and stay 34), we trade down. period.

I'd rather stockpile and get our guy, whoever it may be for sure. But making this finite statement that "we absolutely MUST trade down if were gonna take a DE/DT, when it's only JANUARY, with plenty of room for draftniks for jizz their pants over any prospect, is just plain premature. Especially when Dareus' stock is rising at this point.

Originally Posted by njx9

there isn't any way any 34 DL has really ever been worth the #2 overall pick.

Okay, well in that case, CB has never been worthy of the #2 overall pick, either. There has been 1 corner in history selected before #3 overall, and that was in 1956.

Originally Posted by njx9

and especially not one who basically took the season off and has lazy red flags all over the place.

Well, as I've stated countless times, lets give the guy a chance. There's rumor, and there's fact. At this point, we can both admit that we don't know Dareus' character. So let's wait for some dirt to be dug up. I've stated that if the guy is in fact an issue, we should pass on him. If he's not an issue, however, he's not an issue, and that's that. He's just a beast. And we should take him ahead of PP if everything fine and dandy (by the way, comparing Dareus to Haynesworth is no better a comparison than Dareus to Suh, he can stay in a game for 2 plays without needing a breather, for one. Let's keep in mind these character issues are unproven)

Originally Posted by njx9

if we go to the 43 (which i still think would be stupid, but whatever), then you can start talking about a bowers or fairley having #2 kind of value.

God forbid we go back to the 4-3, I'd actually prefer PP in that situation just because I don't think they are sure fire enough to be building blocks, although my personal jury is still up in the air on that one.

Anyways, I'm not saying you're wrong in your points (except for your claim that PP already presents the best return, despite never having stepped on an NFL field.)

I'm just saying, I'm not wrong either. It's January 7th. It's too early to write people off for character and laziness issues if the ammo isn't sufficient enough for the media to make something of it, because the media will blow up ANYTHING. Champ Bailey is not proof alone that elite CBs are "better overall impact wise" than elite 3-4 DE's. And even if they were, if you draft an elite DE, each legit front 7 guy you draft from that point on magnifies in importance, IMO.

Here are the top 10 defenses. All but one get by without a super elite CB. Most of them have amazing front 7's. Just Sayin'

1. San Diego Chargers
2. Pittsburgh Steelers
3. New York Jets
4. New Orleans Saints
5. Green Bay Packers
6. Miami Dolphins
7. New York Giants
8. Minnesota Vikings
9. Chicago Bears
10. Baltimore Ravens

[LonghornsLegend]

I've been stopping in here to read the debates and opinions on Dareus from you guys. I think he has a decent chance of falling to #9 if you guys pass him up so I'm really intrigued by him. I didn't know as much about those red flags, but I do know he'd be a monster in the 3-4 at the end spot, ESPECIALLY if you can still provide 2 pass rushers at the end spots.


Dallas is in the same spot, probably looking at both Prince & Dareus.