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Old 10-26-2011, 01:36 PM    (permalink
jCut
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That's fair enough.

The thing about the offense is this: if we are dead set on the run - dropback playaction - punt routine then we might as well bring someone else in. I don't see Tebow ever developing into a great dropback passer.

Tebow is made for the spread. If you want him under center, then build in the rollouts and bootlegs to go with the handoffs. Jake Plummer wasn't much of a dropback passer, but Shanahan installed/called plays that made the most of his strengths. Fox and Co need to take a page from that book, even if it puts them outside their comfort zone.
Totally agree. They need to take a page out of Carolina's offensive playbook. Tebow cannot succeed in Orton's offense. GET CREATIVE PEOPLE
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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i don't know what we need that would make this offense more effective for tebow to... do what he does. we need a rb, if we're going to run fox's offense. moreno is a 3rd down back, on his best day, and mcgahee shouldn't be a #1 rb.
An upgrade at RB is almost mandatory, regardless of who is under center. McGahee's relative success should indicate what kind of RB we need - strong with the vision/patience to read blocks.

In terms of helping Tebow, it's play selection more than personnel. The wide open version of our current offense is a great fit, it's just a matter of installing those plays. I assume that was McD's plan before everything went to hell.

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the defense is... getting there. i think it's clear the team needs cb help. and more talent at dt.
Xanders was on 104.3 and he mentioned the need for CB, either through the draft or a younger guy in FA. Another DT would be nice as well.
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Old 10-27-2011, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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Another concern of mine is DE. Elvis, it seems, cannot be counted on anymore to stay healthy. He has been a shadow of himself this season, due to injuries. If Elvis can eventually return to form, I think it should be as a third-down pass-rushing specialist. And I think we've finally learned this year that Ayers simply cannot play. I think we need two base-formation DEs that are stout against the run.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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Another concern of mine is DE. Elvis, it seems, cannot be counted on anymore to stay healthy.
Sadly, this is true. I've been somewhat deluding myself that he just needs that opportunity to get healthy and then we'll have the twin terrors we need on defense. Then the next injury happens...

Champ isn't entirely reliable either. When those two were both out, it was a huge chunk of our salary just watching from the sidelines. Something needs to be done about that.

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And I think we've finally learned this year that Ayers simply cannot play.
I don't agree with that. He's solid at strongside DE. Yeah, he's not flashy and won't get a lot of sacks, but that's not the role he's asked to play. Was he worth a 1st rounder? Nope. But he can still contribute.
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Old 10-30-2011, 01:47 AM    (permalink
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I guess it's just the disappointment in spending a 1st round pick on a "serviceable rotation guy". Especially considering he was known as a guy who lived behind the opponent's line of scrimmage in college. Maybe saying he can't play was harsh, but I still think we could do better.
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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We wanted Tebow to play to at least find out if he could play well. I don't need to see anymore, regardless of the fact that Tebow's barely gotten a chance. For all I care, we can go back to Orton, Quinn or Weber.


Counter arguments?
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Old 10-30-2011, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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It's one thing to do well when you're replacing somebody at the end of a game and the defense doesn't have a game-plan against you. It's quite another thing to do well when a defense has a week to prepare, game-film to study, etc. The luster on Tebow is starting to wear. I wonder if they give Quinn a chance if there's another Timmy implosion next week.
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:10 AM    (permalink
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I wonder if they give Quinn a chance if there's another Timmy implosion next week.
Quinn will never start as long as Orton is under contract. The entire roster knows that Orton is far superior to Quinn, and Fox would instantly loose the locker room playing anybody but TT or Orton.

With Tebow, you could at least play the "It-Factor" / "winner" card when starting him over Orton.

Quinn... offers nothing. No intangibles, no mega-work ethic, no upside.

Tebow will have one more chance versus Oakland in my opinion. Somewhere in the near future, he will get demoted, and Orton will step back in.

Then, we will have to watch Orton play his average ass off just so he can empty his locker out, take a dump in it, and cash in during FA, where Seattle will pay him Whitehurst money to be a poor man's Matt Hasselbeck.
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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nope. i'm pretty sure tebow's exactly who i thought he was. terrible passer. poor decision maker. 3-4 MORE years off from actually being able to play the position well. just watching him, these aren't minor issues. he has the worst footwork of any qb i've ever seen play in an actual nfl game. his arm motion may have actually gotten worse. due to those, he rarely gets a ball anywhere near a receiver, let alone makes it catchable. his arm is absurdly weak, which i think comes down a little bit to footwork again, but even then, he doesn't have a cannon. things started to go poorly, and the leadership facade vanished.

all that said? i'd rather have tebow out there sucking at qb than orton or quinn. at least with tebow playing, we'll know exactly what we have going into the offseason. we already know that orton is generally completely mediocre and that quinn is the worst qb in nfl history.

what's worse is that we'll be faced with a choice between like, landry jones and griffen, and i'm not sure i want either.
I will say this... There is a glimmer of hope, albiet one that is really just me trying shed a little hope on everyone.

If there is any higher up in the NFL willing to pull the trigger on a blockbuster trade to get Luck, it is Elway. His career began (and was formed) when the Denver Broncos emptied ship, trading QB Mark Herrmann, rights to OL Chris Hinton and a first-round pick (OG Ron Solt) in the 1985 draft on May 2, 1983.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, I'm just saying we will alwaysbe the favorite of 32 teams to make a trade up like that as long as Elway is on board... until Luck is taken off the board this April by another team.
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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I will say this... There is a glimmer of hope, albiet one that is really just me trying shed a little hope on everyone.

If there is any higher up in the NFL willing to pull the trigger on a blockbuster trade to get Luck, it is Elway. His career began (and was formed) when the Denver Broncos emptied ship, trading QB Mark Herrmann, rights to OL Chris Hinton and a first-round pick (OG Ron Solt) in the 1985 draft on May 2, 1983.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, I'm just saying we will alwaysbe the favorite of 32 teams to make a trade up like that as long as Elway is on board... until Luck is taken off the board this April by another team.
For that to happen, you really want the Rams with Sam Bradford, to get that pick.
Because Miami needs Luck so badly, and I feel there's a 50-50 chance Peyton is done, so Indy needs him too.

I love Tebow and defend him all the time.
He's a great competitor, athlete, person. The best. And a winner.

But as an NFL QB, he's the worst passer of the football I've seen throw the ball ever, and that includes halfback-options.
That's something that can't and won't be fixed.

I personally wonder if he could be made into a new thing like an H-back/fullback who throws occasional passes. Not sure.

Sidenote, my buddy was talking to Tony Scheffler last night, and he said he was booed to start the game there yesterday, but they chanted his name by games-end.
I feel like Bronco fans should sue Josh McDaniels because he flatout ruined that team from Shef to Cutler to Marshall.
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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I feel like Bronco fans should sue Josh McDaniels because he flatout ruined that team from Shef to Cutler to Marshall.
You know what, most Broncos fans I know do not think the Broncos were ruined by getting rid of those guys. Cutler is not an elite QB and Marshall is a complete tool. Talented sure, but they have had huge issues since leaving and in many ways we are better off without them. I liked Schef, but he isnt the reason we are ruined, or even Hillis for that matter. All of these guys are better players than most of what we have now, but none are elite.

What has ruined us is what with McDaniels did with the bounty of picks we got from the Cutler and Marshall trades.
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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You know what, most Broncos fans I know do not think the Broncos were ruined by getting rid of those guys. Cutler is not an elite QB and Marshall is a complete tool. Talented sure, but they have had huge issues since leaving and in many ways we are better off without them. I liked Schef, but he isnt the reason we are ruined, or even Hillis for that matter. All of these guys are better players than most of what we have now, but none are elite.
You are full of it if you think we are better off without them. We had one of the top offenses in all the league. Yeah we weren't perfect, but if you added a solid defense to compliment the offense, we would've been a playoff team for years to come. Now look at us, and look how far we've fallen.. I actually miss being 8-8.
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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You are full of it if you think we are better off without them. We had one of the top offenses in all the league. Yeah we weren't perfect, but if you added a solid defense to compliment the offense, we would've been a playoff team for years to come. Now look at us, and look how far we've fallen.. I actually miss being 8-8.
I said in many ways we are better off, based on their on and off the field flaws. Maybe I should have said in some ways. This has nothing to do with how good the offense is now compared to Shanny's last year. Obviously it is worse. However, if the picks we got in return were used well, then the trades could easily have made us a better team.
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Old 10-31-2011, 11:59 PM    (permalink
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Touching on various points made in the above posts:

1. Tebow is done. They aren't going to make it work for him and he's not a good enough QB to compensate for the questionable scheme fit.

2. The individual moves made by McD were questionable, but often defensible. However, in combination they were the death blow to the team. Stuff like trading Cutler for picks when you knew you weren't well enough prepared for the draft is pretty inexcusable.

3. Any blockbuster trade for Luck would be a ******* farce. The team is **** overall, so you burn your war chest to bring in a QB? You don't have the other pieces in place already and you also won't have the picks to build around him. ******* genius. If the team does this I'm burning my Broncos gear and giving up on football.

The thing that bothers me about #3 is that I already get the feeling that this season doesn't matter much to the powers-that-be because they don't have "their guy" yet. I don't see them building toward anything this season. It seems like they're just kinda going through the motions waiting for next year. Of course, they're still quite happy to take your money to come to games where the team isn't going to be competitive.
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Old 11-01-2011, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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sorry to double post, but i don't want to edit the last one again and go off on another tangent. as far as the draft, let's say we're not getting barkley or luck (as i think we're all pretty much in agreement that tebow's not really our qb next year, for whatever reason). there isn't another player that's worth our pick at that point. i mean, kalil? i think we're doing ok at T these days. another diva wr? no thanks. i just hate the idea of taking a guy who isn't adrian peterson in the top 5-8, so i'm not all that interested in richardson. no dts. bleh. this is a terrible year to only sort of suck.
I think absolutely look at OT, however I don't know about taking one really high. Franklin is showing to me he can't be a RT in the league. He's getting abused. Beadles is also showing he's terrible at G. Put Franklin at G, and get a capable RT.
I honestly think right now, this team would look at drafting Landry Jones/Matt Barkley with their pick.
I agree with you on Richardson. We need a freakin RB that doesn't dance, but is he worth a top 10 pick? I don't think so. I would actually love Blackmon, but I don't think he'd be available.
I wish there was a stud DT worth taking. Right now, to me, we should look at QB or CB with the pick.
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Old 11-01-2011, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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sorry to double post, but i don't want to edit the last one again and go off on another tangent. as far as the draft, let's say we're not getting barkley or luck (as i think we're all pretty much in agreement that tebow's not really our qb next year, for whatever reason). there isn't another player that's worth our pick at that point. i mean, kalil? i think we're doing ok at T these days. another diva wr? no thanks. i just hate the idea of taking a guy who isn't adrian peterson in the top 5-8, so i'm not all that interested in richardson. no dts. bleh. this is a terrible year to only sort of suck.
Landry Jones?
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Old 11-02-2011, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Please no Landry Jones. I'd rather get Tannehill or Foles in the later rounds than go all out for a risky spread QB from the Bob Stoops system.

Matt Barkley is very comparable to Eli Manning. I think if we draft Barkley we better be willing to wait for his transition to the NFL.

Andrew Luck is not going to happen. ugh

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Old 11-02-2011, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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no point in getting a 2nd round (or later) qb. the odds of getting a real quarterback that late are basically nill and at that point, we'd be better off focusing back on the rest of the team. pick up some stopgap in free agency and hope we can find someone in next year's draft.
I agree completely. Me saying I rather we pick a QB in the later rounds instead of Landry in the 1st is just me showing how much I cringe at the thought of bringing Landry Jones in for our franchise QB.

Alot of good MLB's in this draft NJX. What would you think of picking up Luke Keuchly or Manti Teo in the top of the 2nd round if they slip?
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Old 11-02-2011, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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If DJ does end up leaving us, I would love to pick up Zach Brown from North Carolina. Pairing him and Von Miller at both OLB spot's would give us the fastest bunch in the league.

That being said, we need a cog in the D-Line. I feel DaJohn Harris from USC would be a good fit in the 3rd round.
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Old 11-03-2011, 01:09 AM    (permalink
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If DJ does end up leaving us, I would love to pick up Zach Brown from North Carolina. Pairing him and Von Miller at both OLB spot's would give us the fastest bunch in the league.
I think LB is the least of our worries right now. We need reinforcements at just about every position and we just used two premium selections on LBs last year. No use in having the best LB core in the league when your defensive front, secondary and offense aren't worth a damn.
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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see, i think that's flawed thinking. the team is bad enough we should basically be going BPA at every single pick. there's no position where we don't need talent, and i think (hypothetically, i know you're not directly suggesting it) that to pass on a top LB just to get the 15th best DT (or another alphonso smith) would be... a poor use of our resources. i'd much rather have the best lb corps in the league and a mediocre interior dline than have a decent set of lbers and a mediocre interior dline. *shrug*
Your points are well made, I just hope that situation doesn't arise.
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Old 11-06-2011, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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I was just about ready to analyze the hell out of this game and then I realized...

WE ARE ONE GAME OUT OF FIRST PLACE One. 1. Uno. Un.

How.
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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I was just about ready to analyze the hell out of this game and then I realized...

WE ARE ONE GAME OUT OF FIRST PLACE One. 1. Uno. Un.

How.
The AFC West is a mess right now. All the teams are very uneven with their play. Rivers is head and shoulders above the other QB's in terms of talent and experience, but he's also been self destructing in key situations.

I assume someone is eventually going to get their game in gear and start playing with consistency... but I have no idea which team it will be.
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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My take...

Overall

We trampled the Raiders defense into the ground and grabbed 3 INTs - that's a pretty good recipe for a great Sunday.

Offense

The first half wasn't pretty, but we wore them down and ran away with it at the end. That zone run inside handoff from the shotgun is a great play for both McGahee and Ball - they have the patience to move along the line to find the hole. Combined with the Tebow option from the same look and the Raiders were really back on their heels by the end of it.

Decker was the only receiver with his head in the game the whole time. Royal and D. Thomas both played poorly early, but improved as the game went on.

Up front, there was a serious lack of discipline by both the Broncos OL and the Raiders DL. Clady in particular had too many penalties and could've been called for more.

There was one series in the 3rd where the playcalling was excellent. They mixed up the run and pass, used the rollout and generally just kept the Raiders off balance. Unfortunately, they immediately went back to "Foxball" after scoring. It pains me with how conservative our coaching staff is on offense. That has to change.

Oh yeah, and that Tebow kid. Well, if he had gotten a little more help in the first half from some of the receivers and the OL, the game could've been a huge blowout. I think he improved a lot over the ugliness of last week.

Defense

I generally like what Dennis Allen is trying to do on defense. It's really a matter of players executing. There were too many plays where it was very close, but it always went the way of the opposing offense.

Von Miller was a one-man wrecking crew out there. He absolutely embarassed some of the Raider linemen. Ayers was solid as well. Dumervil had some sacks, but he still looks like he's trying to find his way back to game shape... I wonder if he'll ever live up to his huge contract.

Overall run defense was good. First down runs in particular - lots were stuffed at the line. Opposing RB's hurt us a lot more in the passing game.

The DB's had a mixed day. Getting 3 INTs is always nice, but coverage still needs to improve. Wilhite and Harris in particular both had their bad moments.

Special Teams

The flub on the punt was terrible, capping off what had been a pretty pathetic offensive series. Prater's miss from 40-something was also ugly.

On the flip side, the punting was generally for excellent yardage, coverage was good and, of course, Royal's PR for a TD sealed the game. After years of special teams futility under Shanahan, we actually look like we know what we are doing in this aspect of the game.

Other Comments

The Broncos and Raiders really, really hate each other. There was a lot of nastiness going on, especially up front.

Moreno looks like he can't hack it at this level. He clearly doesn't know how to read a block or hit the hole properly. With him, everything starts with a dance move. I wonder if they could give him a try at receiver.

I think Decker is really turning into a player. He and Tebow need to develop some chemistry... but when that happens, look out.
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:55 PM    (permalink
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meh
We put up 38 points and 300 yards on the ground against the Raiders in their own house, and you bring out the "meh"?

For the love of god, njx, snap out of it!

lolz
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