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Old 11-29-2007, 01:47 AM    (permalink
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I think another discussion we should have is if we are drafting 4 and later and lets just say that McFadden, Long and Long are all gone who do we look at. It seems trading down would be ideal, but what team would trade up for who?
Early rumors have the Cowboys trading up to have a shot at McFadden. I think they have two firsts as well...
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Old 11-29-2007, 05:59 AM    (permalink
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They do have two firsts and should the measureables not be there I say we make a strong effort to trade down to where they're picking bc odds are there picks value are going to be around 1,500 which is below where we will pick...They dont have a lot of needs OR DONT THIN KTHEY HAVE A LOT OF NEEDS (thats more of the feeling I get) and I think getting 2 #1s and perhaps a little something extra like an extra 3rd would be huge...(YES THATS THE VALUE FOR THE 5TH PICK SO IF WE'RE ANY HIGHER BALLIN!)Also in a trade scenario the Jets could en up with 2 1s 2 2s and 2 3s if they trade Vilma at below value to a team who needs a 43 ILB bc of his injury for a 2nd. I think a team like the bears might work out. Considering Lance Briggs is A UFA. Imagine Vilma and Urlacher they would salivate. IMO

-This is all speculative but I think it makes a lot of sense considering the lack of true top talent in rd1 (esp considering our needs) like there was in 2006.
-A trade down allows us to stockpile the top "value" (as it applies to the 1st rd) talent and not reach for a gholston or groves as the purepass rushing OLB and orRT in Cherilus we need. Allows for DE Moore, allows for BIG WR pick I really think it is our best chance at continuing our success in the draft and making the Jets a better football team next season and moving forward.

[NOTE: This is speculation I just want to hear if you think this is a good idea for the team if C Long is undersized cant cover, if DF is too hybridy for our system and drafting depth in top 5 is wasteful, if J Long and RT in top 5 sucks as a pick in general to do not if this highly detailed situation is plausible or likely. I really think and we'd have to see where CLE and the BOYS finish but I think if theyre interested we should give them OUR PICK and make it their problem and then proceed to have a better draft than 2006 with 2#1s (Dallas) 2#2s (Vilma) 2#3s (Dallas and or Pennington) 2 #4s or #5s (Kendall...this is more of a ? was it a 5 or 4) still its about a 10 pick draft and that can change a franchise.]
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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I think another discussion we should have is if we are drafting 4 and later and lets just say that McFadden, Long and Long are all gone who do we look at. It seems trading down would be ideal, but what team would trade up for who?
Only problem with the two earlier answers is that McFadden is gone, so trading down with the Boys wouldn't work. Now if we McFadden is there that is an obvious idea but otherwise it gets a little more tricky. My personal opinion is that I'd like Malcolm Jenkins, though I'm sure you all will disagree. I think Jenkins is a good pick simply because having very good corners helps to beat the spread and most if not all elite teams in the AFC have multiple very good wide receivers. If we're going to beat them we need corners, and Jenkins is a good one.

Some other thoughts I had:

What does everyone think our final record will be? I think we beat the Dolphins this week (I think both teams want this one REALLY badly, but the one factor that's a huge advantage for us is we're coming off a long week since our last game was a week ago today and the Dolphins are coming off a short week with the MNF game and a very tough and tiring game at that) and pull one out against KC/Tenn to bring our final record to 4-12.

I also had a dream last night that we beat the Patriots. It was freakin awesome.

Finally, we all need to root for the 49ers to start winning games so the Patriots don't pick so high. I know I was unbelievably happy when they beat the Cards last week.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Only problem with the two earlier answers is that McFadden is gone, so trading down with the Boys wouldn't work. Now if we McFadden is there that is an obvious idea but otherwise it gets a little more tricky. My personal opinion is that I'd like Malcolm Jenkins, though I'm sure you all will disagree. I think Jenkins is a good pick simply because having very good corners helps to beat the spread and most if not all elite teams in the AFC have multiple very good wide receivers. If we're going to beat them we need corners, and Jenkins is a good one.

Some other thoughts I had:

What does everyone think our final record will be? I think we beat the Dolphins this week (I think both teams want this one REALLY badly, but the one factor that's a huge advantage for us is we're coming off a long week since our last game was a week ago today and the Dolphins are coming off a short week with the MNF game and a very tough and tiring game at that) and pull one out against KC/Tenn to bring our final record to 4-12.

I also had a dream last night that we beat the Patriots. It was freakin awesome.

Finally, we all need to root for the 49ers to start winning games so the Patriots don't pick so high. I know I was unbelievably happy when they beat the Cards last week.
I think i'll agree with the two wins. Here is the rest of our schedule;
@ Miami - most likely game that we win. I think, like you said, both teams desperately want the win. The dolphins definately don't want to lose this game and remain defeated, becuase it's gonna be tough to pull out a win the rest of the season. The jets don't want to lose to the defeated dolphins and be called a joke anymore. It's gonna be a tough game.

Cleveland - Their defense isn't as good as a playoff teams should be and it would be nice to trap them like they did us last year. I just don't think our offense has the ability to put up the numbers to compete with them. I also beleive they are very well coached and won't look past this game.
@ New England - I really just don't see any way that we win this. Personally, I would rather lose the rest of the season and win this game, but I just hope that we keep it close.
@ Tennessee - I see a win out of one of these two games, but I don't see it being against the titans AT tennessee, maybe if it were in the meadowlands.
Kansas City - I see us winning this game and hopefully close out the season on a win.

So ultimately i see us being 4-12 again. I also don't see the raiders winning another game so I think they may select long. It is going to be interesting to see the place that we are in.
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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What are your thoughts on taking Malcolm Jenkins if the Long's and McFadden are gone?
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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I actually like it. But it would hinge on a few things for me; how he and vernon gholston tests out at the combine and how they handle the personal workout.

I beleive both are the cream of the crop when it comes to their respective position and won't lose out with either. I feel if gholston dissapoints in his combine, which i dont think he will, than jenkins will be a solid choice. All in all i think gholston will impress many and he might end up being the pick. It is really going to come down to personal workouts and combine results for a lot of these guys, it is gonna be quite the exciting year.
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Old 11-29-2007, 05:20 PM    (permalink
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This brings up an interesting discussion I think we all can have: Vernon Gholston vs. Malcolm Jenkins. In all honesty unless somebody huge falls to us on draft day or a big wideout (James Hardy, Malcolm Kelly?) burns a big time and becomes a top 5-7 possibility which is where I think consensus is that we'll be picking, I think these are the two guys the pick comes down to. Here's my take:


Both OSU guys and both obviously leaders on the defense. Both fill needs, although Gholston probably fills a bigger need. Jenkins is a big, number one type corner, which we already have with Revis. That said, to match up with the really good AFC teams having two very good corners is a good thing, so I really don't think anyone here would complain about having another very good corner. It improves flexibility with blitzing and allows safeties some more flexibility as well. If he impresses at the combine he's going to be tough to pass up on. He seems like a relatively safe pick though, maybe not to be a shutdown corner but to be a very good one. I see little downside there, and as a corner he can have an effect on our team all by himself.

Gholston is a big, strong, athletic end. I think what direction we go in if forced to choose between the two depends a lot on what Gholston does at the combine. Jenkins is probably sitting higher right now and can really only hurt himself, but if Gholston burns a good time and does fantastic in agility drills he's going to be tough to ignore, especially with his strength and production. But if not I think he's going to slip a lot due to a lack of top measurables, his production is nice but not enough for him to carry over for a lack of measurables. And he's just so huge and muscular that I worry if he's too stiff to be really successful dropping back into coverage or not, so I think he really needs to post good times, especially in the agility drills.

Overall if Gholston does fantastic and Jenkins does alright I'd take Gholston, same if Jenkins slips a little. If Jenkins keeps his position and Gholston keeps his I'd probably take Jenkins just because I think he has slightly better value and is a little safer even though he's less of a need, but I think most other Jets fans would go Gholston and I wouldn't have much of a problem with that either.
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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Clipping form a good article in the Star Ledger "It's different when you're the backup and you're the heir apparent, compared to when you're a backup because you were once the starter," said Pennington, who completed 67.4 percent of his passes with nine touchdowns and seven interceptions this season before losing his job.

Despite cheers when he was hurt in the opener against the Patriots and constant complaints about his lack of arm strength, Pennington said he doesn't feel vindicated by the Jets' continued offensive struggles. Clemens is 1-3 as a starter and has the lowest passer rating of any quarterback with at least 140 attempts (56.9).

"I don't wish any ill will upon anybody," Pennington said. "I think the state of our team right now has been consistent throughout and that is inconsistency."

Also a good article on Pennington potetially being the Jets' starter next year (As clemens has struggled), but probably bolting not really showing the allegiance he once had to the Jets franchise (ala, before the season). I just don't want the Jets FO to be dragged through the dirt again like with Kendall if they say no to releasing or trading Pennington, really making it more difficult (on top of having an awful record) to sign FA or resign our own players bc we have a rep of screwing vets.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/fo...to_bolt-3.html
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:25 PM    (permalink
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This brings up an interesting discussion I think we all can have: Vernon Gholston vs. Malcolm Jenkins. In all honesty unless somebody huge falls to us on draft day or a big wideout (James Hardy, Malcolm Kelly?) burns a big time and becomes a top 5-7 possibility which is where I think consensus is that we'll be picking, I think these are the two guys the pick comes down to. Here's my take:


Both OSU guys and both obviously leaders on the defense. Both fill needs, although Gholston probably fills a bigger need. Jenkins is a big, number one type corner, which we already have with Revis. That said, to match up with the really good AFC teams having two very good corners is a good thing, so I really don't think anyone here would complain about having another very good corner. It improves flexibility with blitzing and allows safeties some more flexibility as well. If he impresses at the combine he's going to be tough to pass up on. He seems like a relatively safe pick though, maybe not to be a shutdown corner but to be a very good one. I see little downside there, and as a corner he can have an effect on our team all by himself.

Gholston is a big, strong, athletic end. I think what direction we go in if forced to choose between the two depends a lot on what Gholston does at the combine. Jenkins is probably sitting higher right now and can really only hurt himself, but if Gholston burns a good time and does fantastic in agility drills he's going to be tough to ignore, especially with his strength and production. But if not I think he's going to slip a lot due to a lack of top measurables, his production is nice but not enough for him to carry over for a lack of measurables. And he's just so huge and muscular that I worry if he's too stiff to be really successful dropping back into coverage or not, so I think he really needs to post good times, especially in the agility drills.

Overall if Gholston does fantastic and Jenkins does alright I'd take Gholston, same if Jenkins slips a little. If Jenkins keeps his position and Gholston keeps his I'd probably take Jenkins just because I think he has slightly better value and is a little safer even though he's less of a need, but I think most other Jets fans would go Gholston and I wouldn't have much of a problem with that either.

I would say we need to adress our pass rush before our secondary. Revis, for the most part, has held his own against some of the top recievers in the game, holding TO to only 65 yards, 22 of which came on his touchdown. Gholston is an absolute monster, being the only player in the country to get a sack on Jake Long defintely proves he has potential to be an elite pass rusher. I would be ecstatic if we get him with the 6th or 7th pick.
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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I would say we need to adress our pass rush before our secondary. Revis, for the most part, has held his own against some of the top recievers in the game, holding TO to only 65 yards, 22 of which came on his touchdown. Gholston is an absolute monster, being the only player in the country to get a sack on Jake Long defintely proves he has potential to be an elite pass rusher. I would be ecstatic if we get him with the 6th or 7th pick.
I think less important than needs is who is the best player our of the two, and more elite for their position. It just seems to me that Jenkins has the higher floor, and the ceilings of both players are very high and probably about the same. Both play very important positions that we could use help at, having a #2 corner to match up with some #2 WR's on better teams in the AFC (Pittsburgh, Indy, Pats) is still very important and our pass rush could obviously use help. The thing with our defense is that we can't just stick in one player and expect them to completely turn us around, so I think we really need to look at who the better player is. At least that's how I look at it. And in my view (this obviously depends on the combine and predraft workouts) that player at this moment is Jenkins. Another important factor is that we could get a better OLB in round 2 if we look in that direction than we could corner IMO. To each their own, I can definitely see the Gholston argument but I personally prefer Jenkins at the moment. Anybody else have thoughts here?
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Old 11-30-2007, 12:44 AM    (permalink
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Well explained reasoning. Like we said earlier it is definately going to depend on how they both test out. Both aren't going to turn the defense around, but will be a big contributor. I am not opposed to either, and at this point I am pretty indifferent between the two. I also would like to see if we get any type of additional picks from any type of trades; if thats the case we'll have to keep our eyes on Derrick Harvey, Tommy Blake, Quentin Groves etc. I am all for going BPA as long as he fits a need. It is also an extremely deep CB draft, so we will have to keep our eyes on some of those guys as well.

Either way, we are in the position to make some moves. If there is a possiblity of trading down as well as trading players to stockpile a large amount of first day picks Mangini and Tannenbaum have the ability to have their version of Landry's "Dirty Dozen" in 1975. That draft set the foundation for I beleive his 2nd superbowl win as well as multiple NFC championships. I feel if certain things play out this could be a draft to shape the franchise for the next decade.

This is of course 100% speculation on my part; there is no way i can gaurantee vilma, pennington or anyone else being traded or us trading down. I was just pointing out in a very deep draft and a relatively non top heavy draft talentwise it could lay a foundation for a championship team. Time will tell though, but the guessing game is always fun.
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Old 11-30-2007, 05:21 AM    (permalink
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Just as a small bit of info. The Jets signed Kareem Brown 64 305 lb DE from the PATRIOTS formerly of the Miami Hurricanes. Whether or not he comes in and plays remains to be seen or heard of and he might be a spy we're tyring to get info off of for our game in 2 weeks.

Maybe he can play for us...The Pats Dline is ridic. and he was a 4th rd pick Im sure he wasnt as good as them but mayube he could be a big 34 DE for us and get time and show us something we like tha he didnt get the opp to do in NE. Id like to see him play and what he has to offer, if he sucks he sucks and we've lost nothing if not we may have more picks to work with come draft day not having to draft a 34DE (TALK ABOUT WISHFUL THINKING)
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Old 11-30-2007, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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Am i the only one against drafting our #2 cornerback with a potential top 5 pick? Hank Poteat has actually had a very solid year, and Justin Miller will be int he mix again next year. Also, this cornerback class could end up being incredibly deep if the juniors declare. Depending on who declares and who slips, I wouldn't mind someone in the second like Mike Jenkins, Talib, Cason, Tribble, or Terrell Thomas. I wouldn't be upset with a third round pick like Chevis Jackson or Simeon Castille either. There will be options. With that being said, after watching each snap of Vernon Gholston his past 3 weeks, I think he's the pick. I've heard a lot of talk about will the pick be justified if we're in the top 5, I still say yes. Depending on how he performs at his pro day and the combine, Gholston could turn out to be a freak athlete. Great production, great size and strength for our system, and has the ability to shed blocks against the run.

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Old 11-30-2007, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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Well put. I see potential in Poteat but Miller couldn't even cover Brad Maynard if we asked him to today.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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Am i the only one against drafting our #2 cornerback with a potential top 5 pick?
I was against it before i was for it.

Just kidding, no I don't tihnk the Jets should draft a cornerback either. Except I don't think they should draft one at all. How much better would the Jets corners be if the Jets had an actual pass rush against more than just the Steelers?
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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Am i the only one against drafting our #2 cornerback with a potential top 5 pick? Hank Poteat has actually had a very solid year, and Justin Miller will be int he mix again next year. Also, this cornerback class could end up being incredibly deep if the juniors declare. Depending on who declares and who slips, I wouldn't mind someone in the second like Mike Jenkins, Talib, Cason, Tribble, or Terrell Thomas. I wouldn't be upset with a third round pick like Chevis Jackson or Simeon Castille either. There will be options. With that being said, after watching each snap of Vernon Gholston his past 3 weeks, I think he's the pick. I've heard a lot of talk about will the pick be justified if we're in the top 5, I still say yes. Depending on how he performs at his pro day and the combine, Gholston could turn out to be a freak athlete. Great production, great size and strength for our system, and has the ability to shed blocks against the run.
First of all, obviously you aren't the only one against it. I can see the arguments against taking a corner with our first pick. This is my perspective. We need to figure out what are our needs, what kind of an impact will a player at a certain position have on our team, and who are the best players available.

Our corner's aren't great. Revis is really the only good corner we have, Barrett, Dyson, and Poteat are all decent and I liked them as #2 corner's for awhile, but I'm not really much of a fan anymore. Dyson has been much worse this year than he was last year, Poteat is really a zone guy, and Barrett is inconsistant. We have a lot of okay players at the position, but there's nobody that jumps out at me as someone I see as a good starter. I think another corner would be great for us because it would give us a lot of flexibility with blitzing schemes.

Outside linebacker is definitely a need for us as well, but I'm not convinced that one outside linebacker is going to have such a huge impact on our pass rush. It's nice to have a good OLB, but without the line in front of him to take up the blockers he could struggle. Plus, look at which position we're replacing. We are replacing Victor Hobson, and unless whoever we select switches positions with Bryan Thomas, they will not be on the quarterback's blindside and won't be playing the position that most hybrids play. If I'm correct, it'll be easy to match up the tight end on whoever we select and force them to drop back into coverage or at least bump them at the line. These are the same issues that DeMarcus Ware faced when coming into the league. Not that Ware didn't have great success early on, but look at how much better he is now that he's switched sides. I'd figure whoever we take will have more success at Thomas' spot than Hobson's, so either we're switching positions with our guy or taking a guy top 5 that will be playing a position that probably isn't even his best fit on our team because Thomas is playing that spot. Also, if I'm correct with whoever we take playing in Hobson's spot and lining up by the tight end with the same problems that Ware had, it will be easier to neutralize whoever we take and give them less of an ability to rush the passer, the exact reason we took them in the first place.

So the outside linebacker is easier to neautralize and scheme against, while a corner (given that it is difficult to cover for a very long time with no pass rush) is out there on an island. Two great corners would increase blitzing flexibility as well as positioning flexibility. And if somebody decides to throw away from Revis/Jenkins (if we do take him, which I doubt but I'd like), they're throwing at another very good corner. Which brings up another point, if we take Jenkins he's really not a #2 like taking a guy in the second would be, but we'd be in more of a 1.a 1.b situation.

As for the point that there's nice value at corner in the second, there's great value at 3-4 OLB as well, and I'd argue that it may be even better. Guys like Tommy Blake, Shawn Crable, and Quentin Groves could be available. At the very least it's a push. But the potential difference between a Gholston and a Blake is much less than between a Jenkins and an Antoine Cason or Aqib Talib IMO. For this year's draft, Jenkins is much better for his position. And again, you're looking at a possible 1.a 1.b corner situation and a very good OLB (that can look like an elite OLB with a good supporting cast), versus a possibly elite OLB and a clear #2 corner.

As for who is going to be the better player, there really doesn't seem to be all that much of a risk with Jenkins or Gholston if they're picked that high. Most 3-4 OLB's taken at the top of the draft (Ware, Merriman, Wimbley) have had very good success, while corners taken at the top (Revis, Cromartie) have had success as well. I'm actually curious to see which prospect is better viewed, and what people think the ceiling's/floors are for the two. But it seems to me that there's more value for the corner position, it's easier to make an impact at the position by yourself without avoiding schemes or having to take on blockers like an OLB (though there is a steeper learning curve), OLB is better later on in this draft or the positions are equal. Assuming all else equal (value of the position, other available players in the draft) the big question becomes which player is better? And simply put, whoever that is, that's who I'd like to take. If the better player is Gholston, than I'd be more than happy with the Gholston pick. And I know I'm ignoring need, but I think given how many needs we have on this team I'd rather take a better player and deal with needs down the road, because we definitely aren't filling all of our needs (LG, RT, WR, NT, DE?, OLB, CB) this draft on the first day, so I'd rather take players that are better players and good values for their spots.
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Old 11-30-2007, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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Great post, and it requires another one, but I am in a hurry to work on my paper, so it'll have to be a quick one.

I love the explanations and right now i would have to say that I think Jenkins might be a bit more rare. What i mean by that is, if he tests out well and continues producing like he is he has the ability to be a very good #1 cb, which in my mind is harder to find than an OLB. This isn't saying that a demarcus ware or merriman can be found in every draft, becuase they can't. I am just saying I think it is harder to find a great coverage guy who can tackle like jenkins.

I also don't want to take anythign away from gholston becuase he is a specimen in his own right. I do eventually think it is going to come down to how they test and perform at their workouts as well as who is on the baord when we come to pick.

The most important thing we have to notice is we have many needs and not one person will turn the franchise around. However, one very good deep draft could. I think with the overall talent depth in the first 3 rounds of this draft, stock piling picks is the way to go. Granted, that is much more easily said than it is done. I just have a feeling we are in the position to make some moves this offseason/prior to the draft and it is a very good draft to do so.

The draft is looking very deep in a few postions such as OL, DE/OLB as well as CB. WR is looking prettying good as well as some good 3-4 DE talent such as Jackson, Dre Moore, Langford etc. The positions that we need the most OG, OT, OLB, DE, WR and CB are deep, which just shows the overall talent level of this draft. That is of course a lot of the underclassmen opt out. I just think if Long or some of the high end guys don't blow us away we should look for other options. The draft is still 5 months away i'm willing to bet some of the players we are taling about will seem funny in a few months. I just personally dno't see that happening with Long, Jenkins or Gholston, but you never know. Remember Quentin Moses was a first rounder in the begining of last year? (i could be wrong, but i know there were a few guys who were sure things who just fell compeltely out of the first through the course of the year.)
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Old 11-30-2007, 05:38 PM    (permalink
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I definitely agree with you that stockpiling picks is the way to go because we could get a lot more done a lot easier. Maybe we get lucky and somebody deals up to grab Jenkins, but if forced to pick it is really difficult. IMO it's almost a toss up that depends on preference (though others obviously don't feel that way) but I think once the combine comes along one well seperate and we'll take that one if forced to pick. Right now I don't know who that will be, but I'm sure we will figure it out.
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Old 11-30-2007, 05:59 PM    (permalink
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Our corner's aren't great. Revis is really the only good corner we have, Barrett, Dyson, and Poteat are all decent and I liked them as #2 corner's for awhile, but I'm not really much of a fan anymore. Dyson has been much worse this year than he was last year, Poteat is really a zone guy, and Barrett is inconsistant. We have a lot of okay players at the position, but there's nobody that jumps out at me as someone I see as a good starter. I think another corner would be great for us because it would give us a lot of flexibility with blitzing schemes.

Outside linebacker is definitely a need for us as well, but I'm not convinced that one outside linebacker is going to have such a huge impact on our pass rush. It's nice to have a good OLB, but without the line in front of him to take up the blockers he could struggle. Plus, look at which position we're replacing. We are replacing Victor Hobson, and unless whoever we select switches positions with Bryan Thomas, they will not be on the quarterback's blindside and won't be playing the position that most hybrids play. If I'm correct, it'll be easy to match up the tight end on whoever we select and force them to drop back into coverage or at least bump them at the line. These are the same issues that DeMarcus Ware faced when coming into the league.

Victor Hobson plays right side (at least according to the depth chart). Meaning if he were to be replaced, his replacement would be playing blind side. Moving him with Thomas might be wise anyway as the success that Thomas had last season was on the right side.

Dallas and San Diego have converted DE's playing both OLB positions IIRC.
Kamerion Wimbley and Terrell Suggs play right side.


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So the outside linebacker is easier to neautralize and scheme against, while a corner (given that it is difficult to cover for a very long time with no pass rush) is out there on an island. Two great corners would increase blitzing flexibility as well as positioning flexibility.
But if the Jets can't generate a pass rush, it doesn't matter how good the corners are, eventually receivers are going to get open. That's just how the NFL works today with the rules the way they are. Plus, if linebackers were that easy to neutralize in the 3-4, a system dependant on inebackers to make plays, nobody would use the system. I'd much rather have the Giants' four defensive ends than the Broncos' defensive backfield.
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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Victor Hobson plays right side (at least according to the depth chart). Meaning if he were to be replaced, his replacement would be playing blind side. Moving him with Thomas might be wise anyway as the success that Thomas had last season was on the right side.

Dallas and San Diego have converted DE's playing both OLB positions IIRC.
Kamerion Wimbley and Terrell Suggs play right side.




But if the Jets can't generate a pass rush, it doesn't matter how good the corners are, eventually receivers are going to get open. That's just how the NFL works today with the rules the way they are. Plus, if linebackers were that easy to neutralize in the 3-4, a system dependant on inebackers to make plays, nobody would use the system. I'd much rather have the Giants' four defensive ends than the Broncos' defensive backfield.
I have to give it to you, I didn't think Hobson played blindside. Unfortunately at college I haven't been able to catch a lot of games (in Philly) so I can't say that the depth chart is wrong. If that's the case it does make it easier to pick Gholston, and as I said it's essentially a toss up in my eyes. I'd just rather take the better player personally, and that's Jenkins. Though a factor (as pointed out in a thread that I made in the 2008 draft forum) is that corner's require more money when they get re-signed. Money could definitely be a tiebreaker in going Gholston over Jenkins. The one thing that gets me is that Jenkins is the better player.

With San Diego and Dallas, they run a different kind of 3-4 scheme (I believe they run one gap and we run two gap, maybe it's vice versa). We run a more Pats/Browns style D, not sure if they have converted ends at both of their spots.

Hobson playing blindside, as I said, was a good point kudos to you for pointing it out. It makes it a little more equal between the two for me, since as I've said I have trouble passing on a better player at a position of need.

As for your point about the pass rush vs. secondary, I agree with you that the pass rush is more important. But I'm skeptical that throwing an OLB in there is really going to change all that much with an undersized defensive line that doesn't do that well and a subpar OLB across from him as far as getting to the passer. If he'd give us a pass rush that's wonderful, but I just don't see Vernon Gholston singlehandedly making us a team that doesn't have a terrible pass rush. We need a lot more pieces for our defense. Would Jenkins make us much better than Gholston? Maybe not, but I think Jenkins is better than any other corner that we could find and we could find a player similar to Gholston at linebacker OR make a slightly lesser player look better with a halfway decent supporting cast (which we don't have right now). It's a building process, I think for next year either Gholston is the better pick or it's a toss up, but I have my doubts we'll have our team turned around by next year and I think long-term I'd go better player over need. That said, money could be a factor and replacing Hobson at ROLB (am I going nuts, or was Hobson a LOLB last year?) does make picking Gholston seem a little better. And as I've said multiple times it's really close, I wouldn't be disappointed with either but I'm also a proponent of the BPA strategy as long as if fills a need of some sort.
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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In a bit of non-draft related discussion, it seems that Cotchery is out for this week because of an index finger issue, and Coles is questionable. Really poor timing for all of these wide receiver injuries, it's tough to evaluate Clemens minus a starting wideout, and certainly would be very difficult without possibly both starting wideouts.
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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With San Diego and Dallas, they run a different kind of 3-4 scheme (I believe they run one gap and we run two gap, maybe it's vice versa). We run a more Pats/Browns style D, not sure if they have converted ends at both of their spots.
Willie McGinnest played OLB for the Pats before the Browns
Adalius Thomas played OLB for the Ravens before the Patriots
Rosevelt Colvin played OLB for the Bears before the Patriots

Prior to that, I don't know.

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As for your point about the pass rush vs. secondary, I agree with you that the pass rush is more important. But I'm skeptical that throwing an OLB in there is really going to change all that much with an undersized defensive line that doesn't do that well and a subpar OLB across from him as far as getting to the passer. If he'd give us a pass rush that's wonderful, but I just don't see Vernon Gholston singlehandedly making us a team that doesn't have a terrible pass rush. We need a lot more pieces for our defense. Would Jenkins make us much better than Gholston? Maybe not, but I think Jenkins is better than any other corner that we could find and we could find a player similar to Gholston at linebacker OR make a slightly lesser player look better with a halfway decent supporting cast (which we don't have right now). It's a building process, I think for next year either Gholston is the better pick or it's a toss up, but I have my doubts we'll have our team turned around by next year and I think long-term I'd go better player over need. That said, money could be a factor and replacing Hobson at ROLB (am I going nuts, or was Hobson a LOLB last year?) does make picking Gholston seem a little better. And as I've said multiple times it's really close, I wouldn't be disappointed with either but I'm also a proponent of the BPA strategy as long as if fills a need of some sort.
Well, the way I see it, if the Jets fix their front seven (which Gholston wouldn't do, but he'd at least be a start), they wouldn't need any additional help at cornerback whereas if they get a great #2 corner, they still need to fix their front seven.

As far as Bryan Thomas, first, boy I wish the Jets hadn't given him a long term extention, secondly, I could only hope that if the Jets played Gholston left side and moved Thomas back to the right side that Thomas would resemble his 2006 self.

Boy I wish the Jets hadn't signed him to a long term deal.
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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In a bit of non-draft related discussion, it seems that Cotchery is out for this week because of an index finger issue, and Coles is questionable. Really poor timing for all of these wide receiver injuries, it's tough to evaluate Clemens minus a starting wideout, and certainly would be very difficult without possibly both starting wideouts.
Who does this make the Jets #1 WR? Oh no, it's Justin McCareins, isn't it? :( :( :(
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Old 11-30-2007, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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Who does this make the Jets #1 WR? Oh no, it's Justin McCareins, isn't it? :( :( :(
Dear god say it aint so.

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Old 11-30-2007, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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Willie McGinnest played OLB for the Pats before the Browns
Adalius Thomas played OLB for the Ravens before the Patriots
Rosevelt Colvin played OLB for the Bears before the Patriots

Prior to that, I don't know.



Well, the way I see it, if the Jets fix their front seven (which Gholston wouldn't do, but he'd at least be a start), they wouldn't need any additional help at cornerback whereas if they get a great #2 corner, they still need to fix their front seven.

As far as Bryan Thomas, first, boy I wish the Jets hadn't given him a long term extention, secondly, I could only hope that if the Jets played Gholston left side and moved Thomas back to the right side that Thomas would resemble his 2006 self.

Boy I wish the Jets hadn't signed him to a long term deal.
As far as the OLB's I meant having 2 converted DE's playing OLB. The only teams that I know do that are the Chargers and Cowboys as you said. Not sure if the other teams do it, but it was simply a thought.

My opinion happens to differ from yours in that I think even if we upgraded our front 7 we'd still need a new corner. Perhaps it wouldn't have to be an elite corner, but I don't think the guys we have right now will get the job done starting. And I also think we're a ways away from an elite front 7. If Gholston would give us an elite front 7 then I'd take him in a heartbeat, but I'm not sure he would give us much more than a couple of guys we could get in the second round (especially if Tommy Blake keeps his head on straight). Again, I think if Gholston makes us elite in the front 7 that's great, but we'd still be far from elite there, making the two a little more equal. At least Jenkins gives us flexibility to blitz more and stick him out on an island. Again I think they both help us in their own ways and I'd rather just take the best player, and we won't figure out who that is until the combine. This also may not be an issue if we just have a top 3 pick as we'll have to be having a different discussion. To be honest, I think we end up taking Gholston if we have the choice, but I'd be cool with either with a SLIGHT leaning towards Jenkins. But very slight.

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Who does this make the Jets #1 WR? Oh no, it's Justin McCareins, isn't it? :( :( :(
It's either McCareins or Brad Smith, and I'd guess both will be starting. My question is who does this make #3? Wallace Wright? Ugh, this could be an interesting game.

Also, I think Coles is questionable. So if he plays that would be awesome.
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