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Old 03-27-2008, 07:53 PM    (permalink
nyjets5125
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im not gonna quote the mocks because their huge but

hcbrads mock:
would be ecstatic if that happneed...however i dont think chad gets a 3 (i would guess 4), if he is even traded (which i dont think he will be), and i dont think he would be as good of a fit in chicago as you say because (like somebody beat me to) his arm isnt strong enough for the windy city...the only thing i would disagree with is round 3 where i woudl go corner with 3a (still would like williams at 3a even though i think we can get better, like if there left maybe godrey or scandrick) and then i would rather mike mcglynn because of his versatility to play and probably start at one point at both OG and OT...but LOVE the draft where we get great value and address all of our needs...however, idk if sweed will last till 22

derzas mocks:
i would be fine with them, i wouldnt love them as much as hcbrads but you kept it more basic and realstic because we shouldnt really assume all those trades... i woudl prefer your 1st to your 2nd but would be fine with either...we address all our needs but i jsut thinkg that waiting till 4th round to address WR (as intriguign as monk is), is too long

good work guys (i also really like how you both mentioned goff, because i really like him and he is my top choice at ILB for the value that we woudl get him, and maybe even me top choice at ILB overall)...ill hopefully get my mock out soon but ive been really busy lately so well see
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:01 PM    (permalink
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i konw this is mock time...but how does dan connor fair in the 3-4 as an ILB?

i would assume he would be pretty good, but i dont konw too much aobut him...does anybody konw? also wht do you guys think aobut if he is capable as a 34 ILB of taking him in the 2nd round (if available)?
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:22 PM    (permalink
derza222
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Obviously hcbrad's mocks are better than mine, I just tried to keep it simple to not get my hopes up. As for not addressing the wideout position till the fourth, I really didn't see much of a better option to be honest. Early guys I see us targeting are Sweed and Hardy, maybe Thomas and I kept away from Kelly because of his knees. I don't really think any of those three are worth the pick at six, but I also think they're all gone in the second too. If somebody's there I jump on it but I'm not convinced they'll be around and I wanted to keep it realistic. I also prefer my first mock to my second but I wanted to give no trades a shot.
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcbrad08 View Post
Jenfanmack...If the market dictates that Josh McNown is valued at a 3rd rd pick and brian Griese at a 5th to 6th rd pick and Chad is better than both he gets that value.

But here is the thing you're forgetting.

1. Josh McCown is not better than Brian Griese.
2. If Josh McCown is worth a 3rd rounder, then Derek Anderson is worth half the first round.

The point is, using these guys as bench marks is probably not a good idea. Any more than A.J. Feeley for a second round pick.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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Vilma got a 2nd round pick at best right? Why in god's name would Chad garner a 3rd round pick?
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Old 03-27-2008, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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Vilma garnered a 4th this year and (with easy incentives) a 2nd next year.

I know McCown and Griese are not good examples I just think if the Jets let Pennington go...which makes sense for the cap and to say to Clemens YOUR TEAM SHOW US SOMETHING, NO MORE PETTY DISTRACTIONS. I also just dont like the idea of Pennington a popular guy with vocal Lav Coles and others in the locker room hanging over the franchise like a black cloud.

I only want chad if he straight up beats out clemens or if he takes a paycut (which I highly doubt) and remains the backup.

You all know I love Chad and maybe Im inflating his value...but you have to admit Tannebaum would look foolish to get less for chad than McCown or Griese.

To revise my hypithesis...it would be much more likely if the Jets dealt Pennington to a team and pulled a vilma deal....something around a 4th this year and a future pick depending on his productivity and playing time. I wouldnt say he garners a 2nd later but maybe another 4th and at the very best if he plays well a 3rd. Ive always believed that if Chad left the Jets, like so many others have, he would play better and succeed more than he did with the Jets and people would say look they traded that guy...those thoughts have died down in my mind but Im not counting out the fact that Chad could mean a lot to a team like the Falcons or Bears who lack a stand up team guy with a lot of veteran/playoff experience.

I guess Im just saying I wouldnt discount the possibility...bc of his cap number and desire to start and our investment in Clemens coming to the forefront. Gus Ferrotte, Daunte Culpepper, and Kelly Holcomb come to mind as backups not Chad, I think if we trade or cut him we should sign one of those 3 maybe 90 year old Jamie Martin (someone whos a true backup, but competetive and hardworking enough not someone waiting in the wings to get in)

Ive heard a lot of talk from people about the Jets making CP a draft day trade...ive also heard about carolina being somewhat interested in drob maybe we package CP and DROB as Delhomme is injury prone and CP would compete. Just a fleeting thought prob wouldnt work as Carolina should draft for the future not bring in a smarter delhome with better accuracy but less of an arm.

A lot of possibilities thats why we have to explain them all.
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Old 03-27-2008, 11:56 PM    (permalink
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I'll be honest I don't see D-Rob going anywhere. Teams are interested, and it'd be nice if we could try to get a bidding war going but between his terrible knee and terrible contract nobody's willing to give up anything. To be quite frank, not restructuring with a team just really screws us over because he's not going to see the money on this contract anyway after he gets cut (if we don't cut him I'll be pissed) and he'll have to sign a FA contract anyway. I guess he assumes he'll get more on the open market, but I'm not sure, especially with 4ish teams that are interested but only for the right price (Denver, Cincy, Detroit, Carolina). He's getting cut by us and we're not getting anything back, assuming anything else is hopeful IMO. And besides, cutting him more than doubles our cap space and he's not doing anything for us anyway, if we can get a pick for him its a steal but even if we cut him it's a great move.

As far as Penny goes, I don't see us moving him. If we get an offer that blows us out of the water I think we do, but right now it doesn't make much sense. I don't think we particularly want Clemens out there if he's not our best option and we're in win now mode. Not that I want Penny to win a TC battle in any sense or think he will, but we're going to want to simply put ourselves in a position to win. Beyond that he's a solid (but expensive) backup and a good mentor for a young player. I don't see a team offering all that much for him because his arm is shot, only a team that has a weak QB situation or an injury just before the season starts that needs a smart, move the chains QB. Even then, the pick 6 risk with Penny is tremendous, so for being a smart QB he's not mistake free which really decreases his value. I don't see us getting much unless some team is desperate, and I don't think we're going to move him just for the sake of moving him. Because of that, I think he's there in TC and we'll see what happens from there. By the way, although he's expensive by the time we get to TC unless we need money for Rhodes (which cutting D-Rob will give us plenty of so I doubt it) I see no need to move him for the sake of moving him.

I guess my theory is, as of now, D-Rob is getting cut with us recieving no compensation and Penny will be in TC and we'll see what happens from there. Don't see us doing much more in FA, right now the FO needs to concentrate on keeping Rhodes long-term before he raises his value to ridiculous levels (we need to cut D-Rob first) and the draft. Hoping for anything more than that is just being very hopeful though IMO.
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Old 03-28-2008, 12:14 AM    (permalink
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Just a comment on the Pennington trade to Chicago scenario...albeit unlikely bc w the exception of someone who got called by their girlfirends uncles cousins baby daddy last year with inside info (when we traded up for revis) you really cant predict them....

BUT for those who say he cant play in a windy city then why would we keep him in the meadowlands where the wind is the most unpredictable and probably 2nd worst to Chicago...if not 2nd (bc thats so subjective its almost not worth posting but its a post) then at least top 5. i was at a night game where he threw a perfect spiral to mccareins down the sideline and it looked like it hit a wal and floated straight down.

DO I think Arizona would be a wonderful place for him where theres NO WIND. Absolutely for certain open up down the field plays BUT realistically any team that has pennington is going to ask him to make the quick slant and timing throws that he can make effectively....Again and it bears repeating, Pennington can be effective when hes not forced to PRESS (go 70 yards in 40 seconds or at least 40 to get in FG range) bc in those scenarios he needs to throw out routes instead of mixing plays up so the wr can get out of bounds and stop the clock. I think he can be effective I just hate going to CLemens and going back, bc essentially its an indictment of our 2nd rd pick in 2006 and kills some of the confidence I would have in the FO drafting ability...bc we could have gone in 2006...
1A) Jay Cutler QB
1B) Nick Mangold C
2) Trade down and take Marcus McNeill OT

i know monday morning QBing is unfair but still if Clemens isnt it now but might be in the future why did we set him up to fail last season with no OL and no deep or big WR threat.

I just want to make sure the team is protecting investments and really building for the future as well as trying to win now.
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Old 03-28-2008, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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At this point our QB situation pretty much sucks. Pennington is a nice game manager but you have to wonder what happens when he starts throwing outs as you said hcbrad. I think he's a great guy to have if you're trying to spark a young team, maybe use as a stopgap for a young guy to mentor and try not to make mistakes. But his arm is a liability because it brings defenses up in the box and ESPECIALLY late in games trying to make a comeback when he's throwing outs (again as you said) because you just have to wait for a corner to jump a route and it's 6 the other way. If he gets traded anywhere I see it to a team with instability at the QB position that needs a stopgap starter for a year or so and then have the guy they draft this year take over (Atlanta?). But he's not a guy you want playing QB for you because he's just not a good late game quarterback, odds are you don't win the close ones with Chad under center. I'm pretty sure that happened in at least three games this past season, trying to come back and he threw a pick (Giants, Bengals, one of the Bills games). He's just not long-term starter material anywhere IMO, he's a mentor and a stopgap and you're not going to get much for that.

Clemens is just really inconsistant. He's either going to take a massive step forward this year or do absolutely nothing and force us to draft a guy. Depending on what we think of him we may draft a guy this year. Granted, he had a crap offensive line no running game and essentially only one starting caliber wideout part of the time. But next year to start the season we should have a much improved pass and run blocking OL and Coles will hopefully be healthy. That gives us a better run game and more time for him to throw alogn with better guys to throw to. Add in Franks in the RZ and any offensive players we draft (hopefully a big wideout that's a deep threat) and he has no excuses. If we get a deep threat in here he's got everything he needs to succeed, and if we don't hes got a nice supporting cast anyways. By the way, our getting a deep threat or not in the draft could be a major indicator of what direction we're going in with QB's. He needs to take a large step forward with a solid supporting cast and a year of starting under his belt. We need him to get us into the endzone, avoid mistakes, and really bring that completion percentage up. Ideally he can be like Roethlisberger was his rookie season for the Steelers, don't ask him to do much just not make mistakes and see how he progresses from there. That said he needs to take a big step forward for the future of this franchise and should have everything he needs to do it. If he doesn't we may need to draft a guy next year, and if we're not convinced he will we should probably go after a guy this year.

On a side note reports are we've agreed to something with Coles. They're conflicting, the Post says we extended him 2-3 years and ESPN says we just guaranteed the last two years of his deal. Rotoworld says they think the Post is right but I'm sure more info will be out soon. Regardless I think this is great news, LC has good hands and is a nice reliable target for a young QB if Clemens starts and has great chemistry with Chad if somehow he starts. Plus, it means we don't have to rush a young WR into a starting job (there are exceptions but it generally takes around 3 years, look at a guy like Roddy White who exploded last year with a terrible team around him). If we grab a guy that can run deep routes, play in the red zone, and create mismatches from the slot that doesn't have to start from day 1 I think it's great for the wideouts development and he can play a big role on the team and really help our QB's as well. Definitely hope it happens.
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Old 03-28-2008, 12:12 PM    (permalink
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you guys are in a sticky situation with Clemens. You can't give up on him so quickly, but at the same time he has been pretty inconsistent. But hey, we just saw what patience can do for Eli, so its waaay too early to write him off just yet.

The one thing that would scare me, when i evaluated his game thus far is blitz recognition. Clemens does a terrible job at recognizing the blitz, really really poor job of it, and he looks terrible out there when you overload blitz him. Thats going to be key in his development, how well he recognizes that this year. From my limited study of him, he was very unimpressive in that regards, and that has to worry you a bit.

But again, give it time, its way too early to write him off. I haven't OD'ed on studying his game so I can't give a fair evaluation of him, but one thing that did stick out to me was his blitz recognition.
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Old 03-28-2008, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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Completely agree BBD, I don't particularly like Clemens' awareness. That and his accuracy are his big question marks for me. That said, he won us some games and his arm strength and mobility are pluses. He's probably going to have to start for us this year, see if he can work through things and gain some experience. If he doesn't it sends a bad message to him. At the same time if he's not the QB of the future for us it really sets us back big time. Hopefully he matures this year and can run a mistake free offense and keept he defense honest with his arm. If he manages to do that I'll consider it a successful season.

Also, I found it amusing that Jerry Jones stated he will not trade up into the top 5 to get DMC. Wonder what happens if he slips to 6... I doubt anything happens but with all of the trade talk on this board I found it interesting.
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Old 03-28-2008, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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Looks like the Coles deal is finally settled.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3317177
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Old 03-28-2008, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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Yeah I'm pretty sure it is, I'm just not sure if it's an extension or a guarantee of the final two years because there's conflicting reports. Regardless, glad he can stop his complaining and play some football. Now we've got to get Rhodes done.
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Old 03-28-2008, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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They really do have to make sure they lock Rhodes up....
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Old 03-28-2008, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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Yeah I have a feeling Rhodes will be going into the season pretty unhappy if he doesn't have a new deal. Given he's arguably the team's best player, and definitely one of the best, he's really massively underpaid. Most of all we need to make sure we have this guy locked up for awhile, he's a huge playmaker for our defense and a team leader. On the bright side the franchise tag for safeties isn't huge and we can just keep him here and negotiate next offseason like that, but I'd rather just get it done. Mediocre safeties are getting ridiculous deals, look at Madieu Williams and Gibril Wilson. We should just lock him up before things start to get too far out of hand and we don't have the money to. Honestly it was a mistake not to extend him before this offseason IMO.
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Old 03-28-2008, 04:35 PM    (permalink
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hey guys, I am doing a fourm mock and I have the jets. So far I took D-Mac and Kentwan Balmer. Comments on these picks. Also, who should I take in the 3rd round.
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Old 03-28-2008, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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we dont have a pick in the 3rd.
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Old 03-28-2008, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OSUGiants17 View Post
hey guys, I am doing a fourm mock and I have the jets. So far I took D-Mac and Kentwan Balmer. Comments on these picks. Also, who should I take in the 3rd round.
First two picks are very solid, i definately like Balkmer in the second, but we don't have a 3rd. We do have two 4ths though.
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Old 03-28-2008, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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Completely agree BBD, I don't particularly like Clemens' awareness. That and his accuracy are his big question marks for me. That said, he won us some games and his arm strength and mobility are pluses. He's probably going to have to start for us this year, see if he can work through things and gain some experience. If he doesn't it sends a bad message to him. At the same time if he's not the QB of the future for us it really sets us back big time. Hopefully he matures this year and can run a mistake free offense and keept he defense honest with his arm. If he manages to do that I'll consider it a successful season.

Also, I found it amusing that Jerry Jones stated he will not trade up into the top 5 to get DMC. Wonder what happens if he slips to 6... I doubt anything happens but with all of the trade talk on this board I found it interesting.
he looked real good against Baltimore, then other times looked terrible. i think his inconsistencies come with inexperience. perhaps with more time he'll put it together.

a running game would help too of course. i expect to see strides this year. this year ill sit down and evaluate his game for a couple of games and break him down. after studying Eli, Rivers and Ben for 4 years id say i have developed a pretty good judgement at qb evaluation :)

first and foremost is ability to read defenses. i want to see if he develops that ability this year.
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Old 03-28-2008, 06:21 PM    (permalink
Crickett
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hey guys, I am doing a fourm mock and I have the jets. So far I took D-Mac and Kentwan Balmer. Comments on these picks. Also, who should I take in the 3rd round.
My only comment about McFadden was, "was Gholston off the board"? If so, the pick is just fine.

The thing about the Jets second round pick is us. Unless the Jets really blow and do something stupid like draft the same position in the second that they do in the first or draft a quarterback, its gonna be hard for them to blow barring a monster reach.

3-4 defensive end works
#2 cornerback works
#3 receiver who could develop into something more works
Pass rusher/running back - whichever they don't take in the first works
I don't like the idea of getting rid of Vilma and drafting an ILB this early, but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world considering Barton's age.
Heck, even maybe another offensive line depending on how the team feels about Brandon Moore.


So basically

QB
LT
LG
C
Slow possession WR
Defensive player who doesn't fit the 3-4 well
Special teamer
Whatever position the Jets addressed in the first round
Ginormous reach

As long as they stay away from those, I would be happy with just about anyone. Except Mario Manningham.
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Old 03-28-2008, 06:24 PM    (permalink
derza222
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he looked real good against Baltimore, then other times looked terrible. i think his inconsistencies come with inexperience. perhaps with more time he'll put it together.

a running game would help too of course. i expect to see strides this year. this year ill sit down and evaluate his game for a couple of games and break him down. after studying Eli, Rivers and Ben for 4 years id say i have developed a pretty good judgement at qb evaluation :)

first and foremost is ability to read defenses. i want to see if he develops that ability this year.
He really did look fantastic in the Baltimore game, but as you said he's an inexperienced guy. Hopefully the supporting cast helps him. You hear people say that we're building an offense for Pennington, playaction passing and the like, but I disagree. I'd like to think we're building a run-first offense to help take pressure off of Clemens. We'll see what happens in the draft, a big play wideout could be a nice piece for the offense if we're trying to build something good for Clemens. If we can fortify the front seven and get a wideout I'll be very happy with the draft.

I'll definitely be interested to see what you think of Clemens after a couple of weeks this season. I do hope we don't ask him to do too much, and he gains some experience without losing confidence. Not looking for a breakout year, but a year where he manages games and learns how to play at the pro level.

I'd also be interested to see what you think of our defense, what we need to add and how you like the Pace addition (I wasn't around for that if you did say anything). I think if we help out the front 7 (pass rusher, beef at end) this draft and maybe even a corner because we've just got question marks across from Revis we could be solid.
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Old 03-28-2008, 09:58 PM    (permalink
OSUGiants17
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Originally Posted by Crickett View Post
My only comment about McFadden was, "was Gholston off the board"? If so, the pick is just fine.

The thing about the Jets second round pick is us. Unless the Jets really blow and do something stupid like draft the same position in the second that they do in the first or draft a quarterback, its gonna be hard for them to blow barring a monster reach.

3-4 defensive end works
#2 cornerback works
#3 receiver who could develop into something more works
Pass rusher/running back - whichever they don't take in the first works
I don't like the idea of getting rid of Vilma and drafting an ILB this early, but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world considering Barton's age.
Heck, even maybe another offensive line depending on how the team feels about Brandon Moore.


So basically

QB
LT
LG
C
Slow possession WR
Defensive player who doesn't fit the 3-4 well
Special teamer
Whatever position the Jets addressed in the first round
Ginormous reach

As long as they stay away from those, I would be happy with just about anyone. Except Mario Manningham.
Gholston was off the board(beleave me I would have easily taken him if he was on the board.) and in round 4 I will take DB(I'm not sure if I should go CB or Safety) and WR(matbe Earl Bennet from Vandy?)
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Old 03-28-2008, 10:01 PM    (permalink
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If you're going DB I'd go corner over safety, and at WR I'd go for a big guy. Monk maybe if he's around? He can't be that much of a reach given his combo of size, speed, and production.
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Old 03-28-2008, 11:13 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sure if i've posted this before, but here is the little nfl film synopsis on the kellen vs. baltimore game; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogqK5YbOzdg

It's basically just kellen in the 4th and shows how good he can be. When the oline gave him time (when they had a TE chipping and a RB staying back to block) he showed tremendous poise, his footwork was fine and he stepped up into the pocket and into his throw, delivering nice crisp, on the money passes. I don't know what happened the rest of the season, but this first game he was in, baltimore was considered a legit playoff threat and their defense was playing quite well at the time.

BBD, i know it's only a few throws, but what can you take away from this 4th quarter?? He didn't seem to have "happy feet" when he was given time, when he was rushed he stepped up in the pocket to buy a little more time and all his throws were on the money; especially the one to mccareins at the end of the game.

Kellen can make all the throws and shows good accuracy when given time, but we shall see if he can make the correct reads all season long, I'm excited to see what he's got.
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Old 03-29-2008, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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I guess my theory is, as of now, D-Rob is getting cut with us recieving no compensation and Penny will be in TC and we'll see what happens from there. Don't see us doing much more in FA, right now the FO needs to concentrate on keeping Rhodes long-term before he raises his value to ridiculous levels (we need to cut D-Rob first) and the draft. Hoping for anything more than that is just being very hopeful though IMO.
i agree completely...i seee us cutting drob but i would really take anything in a trade for him if its draft day and if its before that i would want liek a 5th or 6th for him...i woudl defintely trade penningotn but i mentioned before why i dont think he will get traded...and as for rhodes, we NEED to lock him up long term, hes the best player on our team and we cant have him unahppy, yes we can franchise him next year but he still wont be happy and thtne were constantly in the same situation with him year aftre year which i dont want
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