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Old 06-17-2007, 05:42 AM    (permalink
RedAttack
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How did you exactly improve the pass rush? Not a single player on the 49ers roster recorded anything above 6.5 sacks last year.
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:57 AM    (permalink
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How did you exactly improve the pass rush? Not a single player on the 49ers roster recorded anything above 6.5 sacks last year.
You're in for a big surprise if you think Nolan isn't currently laying the foundation for a dominating defense. Introduce yourself to the player profiles of Manny Lawson and Patrick Willis sometime. I'm pretty sure guys like Leinart are already well aware. From where I sit, that 9er team is improving as fast as any in the league. If I were forced to put money on which team will win that division the most times in the next 5 years, it would be the 9ers.
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Old 06-17-2007, 06:15 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, Manny Lawson and Patrick Willis could be good players in time.

But, where did they exactly improve their pass rush? Lawson was pushed around last year and Willis is going to play inside.

SF is going to continue to struggle with the 3-4 until they can generate pressure on a regular basis. They have yet to do anything that can fix that problem.
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Old 06-17-2007, 06:30 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, Manny Lawson and Patrick Willis could be good players in time.

But, where did they exactly improve their pass rush? Lawson was pushed around last year and Willis is going to play inside.

SF is going to continue to struggle with the 3-4 until they can generate pressure on a regular basis. They have yet to do anything that can fix that problem.
I think that remains to be seen. They have been making a lot of changes to their roster, and it appears as though Nolan knows what the hell he's doing. I know he has that team headed in the right direction, and I'm sure he is well aware of the need for a consistent pass rush. Let's let him get his pieces in place, and then evaluate the pass rush. You don't necessarily need to sign new pass rush specialists to improve your pass rush. Sometimes it's the other cogs that aren't working correctly. Ray Lewis didn't look so hot when the Ravens were missing those big boys up front. Remember? I hate the 9ers with a passion, but I'm a fan of what Nolan has been doing down there. All I can say is just wait and see. I can't tell you what they've done to fix the rush because I haven't seen this years edition yet.
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Old 06-17-2007, 08:47 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, Manny Lawson and Patrick Willis could be good players in time.

But, where did they exactly improve their pass rush? Lawson was pushed around last year and Willis is going to play inside.

SF is going to continue to struggle with the 3-4 until they can generate pressure on a regular basis. They have yet to do anything that can fix that problem.
Lawson hardly ever blitzed.. I don't know where you're getting your pushed around info at. The only guy who was blitzed on a regular basis was Brandon Moore.. and he had 6.5 sacks in 11 starts as a strong side linebacker out of his natural inside position that he's gonna be in as the center piece for most of the blitz packages this year. Where the improvement will come from is in the switch to the 3-4. Considering we ran a 4-3 with Bryant Young and Melvin Oliver at the ends all of last year. Adding a NT makes it possible for Manny Lawson Roderick Green Parys Haralson and Tully Banta-Cain to rush the passer more instead of dropping back in to coverage more if they were in the 4-3. But you're right that the production isn't there but on paper it does look improved.. but then again it could be the same paper that has been saying the Cardinals are a playoff team for the past couple of years. And if thats the case.. we're screwed.
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Old 06-17-2007, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Improved pass rush:

1) Lawson enters year two and the Niners finally have the rest of the personnel to run a 3-4, hence more opportunities for him to rush the passer. He was not "pushed around" last year-- just not asked to rush very often. SF was forced to run a 4-3 because they didn't have enough quality LBs and so Lawson had to drop back into coverage a lot. He did a nice job overall and only improved as the season went on.

2) Signed Tully Banta-Cain from the Pats to play the other 3-4 OLB spot-- he applied pretty good pressure in New England even though he was mostly used in a "wave" role. With SF he'll get more playing time and could put up bigger numbers.

3) Signed Michael Lewis, a solid in the box safety and blitzer.

Those are the main additions/changes. I think mostly, it's going to be the scheme change that helps out. Also, the team added Ray McDonald in the 3rd round to play DE (and he can rush the passer a little, though in the 3-4 he'll be asked mostly to occupy OL) and the addition of Clements will force opposing QBs to hold the ball longer, giving the pass rush more time to get there.

Any more questions?
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Old 06-17-2007, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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I'm still not that sold on our pass rush either. Lawson looks like better fit as a coverage LB more then your dominant 3-4 OLB pass rusher. Cain is reportedly is very overweight right now which probably will affect him from becoming a good speed rusher off the edge also.
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Old 06-17-2007, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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I think we're making too much out of Banta-Cain's weight. It's June and he's about 15 lbs overweight now, for crying out loud. He's got about 5 weeks to get it taken care of before training camp, and losing 3 lbs a week is very doable for a professional athlete. If he's 15 lbs overweight when camp starts, I'll be worried.
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Old 06-17-2007, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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Lawson hardly ever blitzed.. I don't know where you're getting your pushed around info at.
Even with the protection that comes from the 4-3 he was ineffective. Do you think that Lawson is suddenly going to blow up with less protection in the 3-4 as an OLB? I find that hard to believe. He is going to be taking on linemen now, not backs looking to pick up the blitz.

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The only guy who was blitzed on a regular basis was Brandon Moore.. and he had 6.5 sacks in 11 starts as a strong side linebacker out of his natural inside position that he's gonna be in as the center piece for most of the blitz packages this year.
He got 6.5 sacks as a 4-3 OLB. Blitzing as an ILB in the 3-4 is a different concept all together because he will be taking on the interior of the line rather than backs and TE's.

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Where the improvement will come from is in the switch to the 3-4. Considering we ran a 4-3 with Bryant Young and Melvin Oliver at the ends all of last year. Adding a NT makes it possible for Manny Lawson Roderick Green Parys Haralson and Tully Banta-Cain to rush the passer more instead of dropping back in to coverage more if they were in the 4-3. But you're right that the production isn't there but on paper it does look improved..
Sounds good in theory. But none of those guys have proven anything yet. Your counting on four guys who have no track record of being effective pass rushers suddenly blowing up to help that pass rush.

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but then again it could be the same paper that has been saying the Cardinals are a playoff team for the past couple of years. And if thats the case.. we're screwed.
Scoreboard, bud. Just take a look at the scoreboard the last two years. That's all that needs to be said.
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Old 06-17-2007, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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I am sorry but if the Raiders upgrade their D-Line. They have more potential then any other team in the league.
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Old 06-17-2007, 07:18 PM    (permalink
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I am sorry but if the Raiders upgrade their D-Line. They have more potential then any other team in the league.

this is a NFC West Thread not the AFC west Thread :):):)
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Old 06-17-2007, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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this is a NFC West Thread not the AFC west Thread :):):)
Just had to state that lol.
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Old 06-17-2007, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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Even with the protection that comes from the 4-3 he was ineffective. Do you think that Lawson is suddenly going to blow up with less protection in the 3-4 as an OLB? I find that hard to believe. He is going to be taking on linemen now, not backs looking to pick up the blitz.
Manny Lawson played 4-3 OLB...they don't pass rush much and he didn't. He got 2 sacks in his limited opportunities last year. He also was playing at 240lbs. He's bigger this year and will be rushing the passer alot more with his insane speed. He hasn't proven anything as a pass rusher yet, but he has proved he will be successful in the NFL as a coverage LB at very least. I'd expect 5-7 sacks from him this year, but he has the talent to explode

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He got 6.5 sacks as a 4-3 OLB. Blitzing as an ILB in the 3-4 is a different concept all together because he will be taking on the interior of the line rather than backs and TE's.
Moore has done blitzing from the 3-4 alignment before (2005) and he was successful at it.

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Sounds good in theory. But none of those guys have proven anything yet. Your counting on four guys who have no track record of being effective pass rushers suddenly blowing up to help that pass rush.
Roderick Green has shown himself to be a good pass rusher, he had 4.5 sacks in VERY limited action (maybe 9 games of spot duty) including 2 against Walter Jones. The reason he gets limited action is because thats about all he can do...not very good in coverage or against the run. Overall we don't have a dominant pass rusher, but alot of potential in this group. We won't have a dominant pass rush, but it will be improved.
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Old 06-17-2007, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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Scoreboard, bud. Just take a look at the scoreboard the last two years. That's all that needs to be said.
Look at the "scoreboard" of your sh!tty teams whole existence.

In the last 24 years, the Cardinals have made the playoffs once.
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Old 06-17-2007, 09:35 PM    (permalink
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RedAttack:

I don't think you're quite grasping the different roles of a 3-4 versus a 4-3 OLB. The former is freed to rush the passer more than the latter, not the other way around as you seem to be suggesting.
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Old 06-17-2007, 09:46 PM    (permalink
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What will looking at the scoreboard do for this upcoming season? This year, the Cardinals Offensive Line got worse barring a ROY season from rookie tackle Levi Brown. If the pass protection was questionable with Leonard Davis there, what do you think it'll be with him gone? Face it, there will be no more pop passes to Fitz and Boldin seeing that are secondary is improved and there will be no running game with E-James and Aarington running the rock behind that waste of space you call a line.
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Old 06-17-2007, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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Even with the protection that comes from the 4-3 he was ineffective. Do you think that Lawson is suddenly going to blow up with less protection in the 3-4 as an OLB? I find that hard to believe. He is going to be taking on linemen now, not backs looking to pick up the blitz.
What are you talking about? He didn't take on any blockers last year. If you're saying he was ineffective in general well that is just not true. He was very effective in coverage and chasing down running backs behind the LOS. If you're talking about as a pass rusher.. he's not ineffective. Just unproven.. for now.

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He got 6.5 sacks as a 4-3 OLB. Blitzing as an ILB in the 3-4 is a different concept all together because he will be taking on the interior of the line rather than backs and TE's.
Well that's good, because in 05 he started in about 8 games at ILB in the 3-4 and had 5 sacks in his first real starting experience. And that was with Anthony friggin Adams a 6' 300lb NT in the middle not doing anything to keep blockers off Moore. So I think its safe to say he can do it.

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Sounds good in theory. But none of those guys have proven anything yet. Your counting on four guys who have no track record of being effective pass rushers suddenly blowing up to help that pass rush.
What did I say? I said I know the production wasn't there. What I was saying is being in the 3-4 it will play more to the players strength with Banta-Cain Green Haralson and Lawson as opposed to rushing players who are not known to have pass rush skills or have limited pass rush skills in Young and Oliver. Again on paper it looks good, but you know how tricky those papers can be.

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Scoreboard, bud. Just take a look at the scoreboard the last two years. That's all that needs to be said.
Super Bowls, bud. 5 to 0. Oh hey look.. I can play the things in the past that don't mean a damn thing about this upcoming season game too.
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Old 06-18-2007, 04:40 AM    (permalink
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RedAttack:

I don't think you're quite grasping the different roles of a 3-4 versus a 4-3 OLB. The former is freed to rush the passer more than the latter, not the other way around as you seem to be suggesting.
I actually think that is totally debatable based on what gap(s) the DT's and DE's are called to hold on a particular play.

But generally, in the 3-4, the OLB will more often than not will come up against an OT.

In the 4-3, the OLB will most likely face a back or TE when asked to blitz (because the DE is already occupying the OT).

Which is the more advantagous match up for the OLB? Obviously the latter.

Doesn't it concern you that a guy who is suppossedly so athletic and explosive didn't show more as a pass rusher when he is facing backs and TE's on a blitz?

Or that Nolan didn't call Lawson to blitz more often in light of the 49ers poor pass rush?
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Old 06-18-2007, 05:25 AM    (permalink
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[b]Manny Lawson played 4-3 OLB...they don't pass rush much and he didn't.
That is really based on the scheme. But just look at other OLB's in the West, Karlos Dansby had 8 sacks and Julian Peterson had 10. So I don't think it is THAT unusual.

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Moore has done blitzing from the 3-4 alignment before (2005) and he was successful at it.
You're right, I had actually forgotten about that. So I will concede on that point.
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Old 06-18-2007, 05:29 AM    (permalink
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Look at the "scoreboard" of your sh!tty teams whole existence.

In the last 24 years, the Cardinals have made the playoffs once.
Talk about irrelevant. You have not beaten us for two years, pal. Until you do, you aren't sniffing an NFC West title.
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Old 06-18-2007, 05:40 AM    (permalink
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What will looking at the scoreboard do for this upcoming season? This year, the Cardinals Offensive Line got worse barring a ROY season from rookie tackle Levi Brown.
The offensive line is a total unknown at this point. The scheme is totally new so I would atleast wait until the pre-season starts before calling it 'better' or 'worse'.

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If the pass protection was questionable with Leonard Davis there, what do you think it'll be with him gone?
Leonard Davis is a totally average OT. He improved once he had front-side responsibilities and the TE was able to help him out.

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Face it, there will be no more pop passes to Fitz and Boldin seeing that are secondary is improved and there will be no running game with E-James and Aarington running the rock behind that waste of space you call a line.
Fitz and Boldin are good enough that they have been dominant without a viable OL and running game since they entered the NFL.

But, the OL and running game picked up down the stretch. Remains to be seen how that translates to this year.
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Old 06-18-2007, 05:53 AM    (permalink
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Or that Nolan didn't call Lawson to blitz more often in light of the 49ers poor pass rush?
Not really considering we hardly blitzed our linebackers aside from Brandon Moore who was moved around from inside to outside and even to DE. And late in the season we started to put Roderick Green, Parys Haralson (when healthy), and Brandon Moore at DE on 3rd downs and passing situations. Where we blitzed a lot from was from the corner and safety spots. Which shows how much confidence we had in Lawson's skills in coverage. Which is why I'm not worried about him not used more often as a blitzer.
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Old 06-18-2007, 06:15 AM    (permalink
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The offensive line is a total unknown at this point. The scheme is totally new so I would atleast wait until the pre-season starts before calling it 'better' or 'worse'.

Leonard Davis is a totally average OT. He improved once he had front-side responsibilities and the TE was able to help him out.
Gotta agree that Davis was a completely average OT. Only was recognized as the best lineman the Cardinals had because he was a high draft pick. Definitely thought Reggie Wells was the Cards best lineman last season at RT. Buuuut.. I am happy he's being moved back to guard. And I'm even happier that they drafted Levi Brown who I wasn't very high on to begin with. Add in that Mike Gandy was downright awful in Buffalo and I didn't really consider Al Johnson all that special as a center. And well lets just say.. as a Niner fan I would gladly welcome the Cardinals into the stick this year with an O-Line of Gandy-Wells-Johnson-Latui-Brown.

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Fitz and Boldin are good enough that they have been dominant without a viable OL and running game since they entered the NFL.
Yeah, Fitz and Boldin are nuts. Among not having an OL or running game I wouldn't say they've had much in the QB situation either(aside from Leinart coming into this next season). You can't really hope to stop them.. only contain them. Which I would say is probably one of the main reasons the Niners brought in the 80 million dollar man. Which says alot with how our coaching staff and front office feels about the Cardinals as a threat.
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Old 06-18-2007, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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The offensive line is a total unknown at this point. The scheme is totally new so I would atleast wait until the pre-season starts before calling it 'better' or 'worse'.



Leonard Davis is a totally average OT. He improved once he had front-side responsibilities and the TE was able to help him out.



Fitz and Boldin are good enough that they have been dominant without a viable OL and running game since they entered the NFL.

But, the OL and running game picked up down the stretch. Remains to be seen how that translates to this year.


Hey Redattack,
Don't worry man, even if we don't get the pass rush we are looking for from all the teams we play this year. At least we can record some serious sacks versus the Cards to pad the stats, I mean... Have you looked at your offensive line?
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Old 06-18-2007, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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I actually think that is totally debatable based on what gap(s) the DT's and DE's are called to hold on a particular play.

But generally, in the 3-4, the OLB will more often than not will come up against an OT.

In the 4-3, the OLB will most likely face a back or TE when asked to blitz (because the DE is already occupying the OT).

Which is the more advantagous match up for the OLB? Obviously the latter.

Doesn't it concern you that a guy who is suppossedly so athletic and explosive didn't show more as a pass rusher when he is facing backs and TE's on a blitz?

Or that Nolan didn't call Lawson to blitz more often in light of the 49ers poor pass rush?
Ok, but this is exactly what you're not getting. It's not that he was ineffective in a pass rush role, it's that he was so valuable as a drop back defender Nolan had him do that more often. Basically, our coaching staff was more confident that they could manufacture a pass rush with scheme than coverage with scheme, so they used Lawson's talent in coverage and just tried to get guys like Rodrick Green in the right place to make plays rushing the passer.

It doesn't concern me at all that Nolan didn't use Lawson to rush the passer more. He made the judgment early in the year that Lawson would be a key piece to the D, and also that if he played all three downs he would wear out late in the season (as so many college players do when making that kind of transition). So Nolan decided he'd play 1st and 2nd downs and sit on 3rd downs for the most part-- hence fewer opportunities to rush the passer.

Does it make sense now? It wasn't because the coaching staff made the determination that Lawson was incapable of being a good pass rusher-- but rather because they decided he could be so good in coverage and didn't want him wearing out late in the season so they let him focus on that role as a rookie.
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