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View Poll Results: who is faster devin hester or reggie bush?
Devin Hester 48 44.44%
Reggie Bush 48 44.44%
Other 12 11.11%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-13-2007, 07:58 PM    (permalink
Shiver
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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
Jerius is shifty but he's not as fast as Bush. Bush accelerates better and has a higher top-end speed. Bush showed flashes as a runningback last season and will likely continue to improve that facet of his game. Saying Norwod is superior to Bush at this point as a football player is simply not true.
Except as a runner, in that regard Jerious is the better player. In fact he is a much better runner. Norwood clearly doesn't provide the dynamism that Bush provides in the passing attack, though.
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Old 05-13-2007, 09:36 PM    (permalink
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=bF6S0-A2UHg

not that it proves anything about speed....

I personally think all these speed arguments are silly. There is no clear cut fastest player and it certainly cant be proven. Obviously Hester is a lot faster than the 4.4 he ran at the combine and on any given play one guy can be faster than the other.

But I really do believe Hester is going to be the best RS in league history. I think the Bears may be getting ready for the prospect of teams kicking away from him by adding Norwood, who could field kicks that are kicked away from Hester.
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Old 05-13-2007, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TheChampIsHere View Post
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bF6S0-A2UHg

not that it proves anything about speed....

I personally think all these speed arguments are silly. There is no clear cut fastest player and it certainly cant be proven. Obviously Hester is a lot faster than the 4.4 he ran at the combine and on any given play one guy can be faster than the other.

But I really do believe Hester is going to be the best RS in league history. I think the Bears may be getting ready for the prospect of teams kicking away from him by adding Norwood, who could field kicks that are kicked away from Hester.
That was against Duke
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Old 05-13-2007, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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That was against Duke
yeah but its still ridiculous. Im not saying it means anything, I just felt like posting it in case anyone hasnt seen it.
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Old 05-13-2007, 10:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Achilles33 View Post
Hester is quick, he doesn't have that blazing bush speed. He is fast, but not bush fast. Bush is also quicker as well. If you watch most of Hester's returns, he breaks their ankles and then runs right by them when they are on the ground. Bush does that, or just runs right by them.
So does Devin. I'd say Hester has more short area speed and quickness which is what makes him so effective he just explodes and hits a hole, while Bush has more in the tank for the long run.
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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Except as a runner, in that regard Jerious is the better player. In fact he is a much better runner. Norwood clearly doesn't provide the dynamism that Bush provides in the passing attack, though.
Way too early to say that. We haven't seen enough of either player to make that determination. Based off college, Bush is the better runner. In the NFL, it's tough to compare the two because they are in very different situations and they're both playing second fiddle right now. I don't think you can say that Norwood is a much better runner because there isn't much evidence to support that viewpoint.
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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Way too early to say that. We haven't seen enough of either player to make that determination. Based off college, Bush is the better runner. In the NFL, it's tough to compare the two because they are in very different situations and they're both playing second fiddle right now. I don't think you can say that Norwood is a much better runner because there isn't much evidence to support that viewpoint.
Except for the fact that Norwood had 68 more yards than Bush, on 56 less carries. Or that Jerious Norwood actually broke four 20+ yard runs, including two 69+ yard runs, when Bush in contrast had none.
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Except for the fact that Norwood had 68 more yards than Bush, on 56 less carries. Or that Jerious Norwood actually broke four 20+ yard runs, including two 69+ yard runs, when Bush in contrast had none.
Very small sample of plays. Plus, as I mentioned, both are in very different situations. You can make a lot of arguments such as:
-Atlanta has a better overall rushing attack
-Norwood had more holes to run through
-Teams didn't key on Norwood like they did Bush
-etc.
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:40 PM    (permalink
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Very small sample of plays. Plus, as I mentioned, both are in very different situations. You can make a lot of arguments such as:
-Atlanta has a better overall rushing attack
-Norwood had more holes to run through
-Teams didn't key on Norwood like they did Bush
-etc.
Atlanta's rushing attack was only superior because of Michael Vick, you should know that. Take him out and Atlanta has not been special.

Atlanta lost its best O-Lineman for most of the season, and both guards for most of the season. Norwood played as a '2' back like Bush, but clearly outclassed him as a runner. Deuce McAllister had no problems finding "holes" behind the New Orleans' O-Line.

The only time teams "keyed" in on Bush was when he was in space. You don't devote attention to a player who hasn't proven he can beat you inside the tackles. Teams cheated towards the perimeter because he would always bounce plays outside the Tackles, either that or reverse field.
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Atlanta's rushing attack was only superior because of Michael Vick, you should know that. Atlanta lost its best O-Lineman for most of the season, and both guards for most of the season. Norwood played as a '2' back like Bush, but clearly outclassed him as a runner. The only time teams "keyed" in on Bush was when he was in space. You don't devote attention to a player who hasn't proven he can beat you inside the tackles. Teams cheated towards the perimeter because he would always bounce plays outside the Tackles, either that or reverse field.
They still opened up some nice holes for the runningbacks, at least when I watched. I think it's way too premature to say that Norwood is a much better runner than Bush.
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Old 05-14-2007, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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Except as a runner, in that regard Jerious is the better player. In fact he is a much better runner. Norwood clearly doesn't provide the dynamism that Bush provides in the passing attack, though.
Surely you do not actually believe that Norwood is a better runner than Bush? It is simply not true and your opinion here is purely homerific. Your rejoinder to my argument is likely to be a few comments talking about how many yards Norwood averaged per run and how many big runs he had. You will mention the fact that Norwood played in a ZBS and made "most" of those long runs late in the game or when he was subbing in on some 3rd downs (when defenses were thinking that it was an obvious pass play).

Bush improved as a runner, particularly toward the end of the season when he was average over 5 yards per carry. The difference is he was still playing against starters whose sole game plan was stopping him. Also, people like to talk about Bush's running ability or supposed lack thereof, but in the beginning of the season his problems stemmed more from his own decisions to try to look for a big play rather than defenses just coming out and stopping him. I remember on NFL Network when Marshall Faulk broke down footage on Bush and showed that Bush was avoiding big plays that he could easily make while trying to break a play outside. Because defenses already knew where he was running, they would immediately attack the edges and he would usually end up running out of bounds. I happen to believe that the 44 yard run he had against the Titans in preseason provided Bush with the illusion that he could just retreat outside on every play. Once Sean Payton and others (including Faulk) told him to just take what the defense gave him, he started to show those flashes of brilliance that made him the top player in last year's draft. Now, because he was willing to cut back, defenses no longer could just look to attack the edge. Well, what does that do for Bush? It opens the edge up anytime he chooses to cut back. If you watched the games from Pittsburgh on through the end of the season, you could see just how effective he was; for emphasis, against Philadelphia in the playoffs, he was able to cut back against the grain and reverse field for a 20+ yard run simply because the defenses could not commit to the edges on him. That play would not have been there for him in the beginning of last season. Against Chicago, the Saints sort of relied to heavily on the pass but Bush was the only back that was able to get some really good runs against the Bears defense. I think the game against the Giants was a preview of what Bush as a runner will be like.

So, again, to call Norwood a better runner at this stage is premature and, even more, is playing fast and loose with the facts. Also, I know you did not make this argument but a couple others did. Norwood is not faster than Bush. A lot of Falcons fans continue to argue that he ran some ridiculous time at the combine even on the actual Falcons site. I have continued to refute these claims with actual evidence. Norwood ran a 4.40 at the combine. He is fast and shifty but he's not Bush fast.

Here's the evidence:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9269912

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=17310
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns

Pass this info on to your good friends on the Falcons message board. And by the way, also tell them that Chris Houston MAY NOT HAVE RUN a 4.32 as first believed at the combine. Houston is darn fast but the 4.32 was an unofficial time according to the article below that EVERYONE ran with and, of course, no one ever seemed to go back and correct with the official time. His official time here is 4.4:

The NFL Network was also guilty of posting 40 times during the combine this year that ended up being WAY faster than the official 40 times. Remember that 4.32 Chris Houston ran? The official time was right at 4.40. Adrian Peterson's 4.35 became a 4.41. I know that they want to get the info out as soon as possible, and believe me, I loved the instant info as well, but too many people ran with their unofficial 40 times as legit when the official combine numbers ended up being higher in almost every case. Then, when you try to provide legit NFL combine/workout info, people think the info is bad because it isn't what is in Gil Brandt's column or on the NFL Network.

http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2007/03/

Interestingly enough, Brandt did not have him a a 4.32 but a 4.35: http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/10026017

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Old 05-14-2007, 10:19 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TheChampIsHere View Post
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bF6S0-A2UHg

not that it proves anything about speed....

I personally think all these speed arguments are silly. There is no clear cut fastest player and it certainly cant be proven. Obviously Hester is a lot faster than the 4.4 he ran at the combine and on any given play one guy can be faster than the other.

But I really do believe Hester is going to be the best RS in league history. I think the Bears may be getting ready for the prospect of teams kicking away from him by adding Norwood, who could field kicks that are kicked away from Hester.
lol he was almost running half speed the whole time.
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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Bush does not have better vision than Hester..

What makes Hester so special on kick returns is his vision.

Sorry, Hester is faster.

Bush is bigger,stronger, and clearly a better overall player though.
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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"I think the Bears may be getting ready for the prospect of teams kicking away from him by adding Norwood, who could field kicks that are kicked away from Hester."

Who is Norwood?

And Hester was officially moved to offense as of today.
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:12 PM    (permalink
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What the hell are you talking about? We didn't add Norwood. He's on the Falcons.

We added Garrett Wolfe who probably will be put back with Hester on Punts and Kickoffs so they don't kick away from him. Or well if they do, Garrett has playmaking ability as well.
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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Surely you do not actually believe that Norwood is a better runner than Bush? It is simply not true and your opinion here is purely homerific. Your rejoinder to my argument is likely to be a few comments talking about how many yards Norwood averaged per run and how many big runs he had. You will mention the fact that Norwood played in a ZBS and made "most" of those long runs late in the game or when he was subbing in on some 3rd downs (when defenses were thinking that it was an obvious pass play).

The 69 yard run against the Redskins was against their starters, when the game was still in the balance. He locked up the win with his play. He showed power, vision, and explosive speed. He played in the same role as Reggie Bush, and outdid him as a runner. You can argue the 'it's too soon' line, all you want in fact. That doesn't change the fact that Norwood outplayed him as a RB last year.
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Old 05-14-2007, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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The 69 yard run against the Redskins was against their starters, when the game was still in the balance. He locked up the win with his play. He showed power, vision, and explosive speed. He played in the same role as Reggie Bush, and outdid him as a runner. You can argue the 'it's too soon' line, all you want in fact. That doesn't change the fact that Norwood outplayed him as a RB last year.
I am not merely arguing any "it's too soon" line. You isolate a few statements from what was a very long post on my part to make this
baseless argument. You point out one run that Norwood had against
starters but do little to refute the rest of my argument. And you fail
to acknowledge the fact that Norwood was playing in a ZBS. I have
watched the ZBS turn average backs into studs and most of those
average backs become duds once they are no longer in that system.
See: Olandis Gary for example. Outside of Clinton Portis, most RBs
that leave an offense that has a ZBS fail to be productive. The Falcons
are eliminating the ZBS this year. Surely, you don't think that Norwood,
especially if he starts, will average anything close to 6.4 yards per carry.
Heck, I don't even think he will sniff 5.0 yards a carry but that's just me.
And that's not to say that he cannot be a good back or anything but I
think it is nothing but pure homerism that so many Falcons fans seem so
eager to annoint this guy as the second coming! Also, go back and look at
LaDainian Tomlison's rookie year. He posted over 1000 yards but his average
was around the same as Reggie, it is just that had more carries. Now, this is in NO WAY, SHAPE, FORM OR FASHION, an insinuation that Bush is going to be the second L.T. But the point here is that if you do base your argument off one year of play, you might as well have suggested that Norwood did more with less opportunities than L.T. did as well. Such an argument on your part would be pure balderdash and you know it...just as it is in this case!

Just as I told Falcons fans last year we would see when the games are played...we will see what happens this year between Bush and Norwood as the games are played this season.
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Old 05-14-2007, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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What the hell are you talking about? We didn't add Norwood. He's on the Falcons.

We added Garrett Wolfe who probably will be put back with Hester on Punts and Kickoffs so they don't kick away from him. Or well if they do, Garrett has playmaking ability as well.
5-4-2 KO Return. Man.
Sickning.
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Old 05-14-2007, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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bush because he's hitting kim kardashian
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Old 05-14-2007, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seasonticketholder View Post
I am not merely arguing any "it's too soon" line. You isolate a few statements from what was a very long post on my part to make this
baseless argument.
Most of your post was superfluous. I merely cut right to the point. I never said Norwood was "faster," nor did I claim Bush didn't show slight improvements as a player as the season went along.

Quote:
You point out one run that Norwood had against starters but do little to refute the rest of my argument.
It did refute part of your argument. Which was Norwood made his big runs when the games were late in the game, or on 3rd down. That point had no merit, and I made sure to debunk it.

Quote:
And you fail to acknowledge the fact that Norwood was playing in a ZBS. I have watched the ZBS turn average backs into studs and most of those average backs become duds once they are no longer in that system.
See: Olandis Gary for example. Outside of Clinton Portis, most RBs
that leave an offense that has a ZBS fail to be productive. The Falcons
are eliminating the ZBS this year.
That is an irrelevant point. Every team in the NFL uses zone blocking principles, it's just that a few teams use it exclusively. The Alex Gibbs' scheme didn't help Green Bay Packers, or Houston Texans' rushing attack produce "stud" Running Backs.

Deuce McAllister had no problem running behind the Saints O-Line. That's because he ran with power and vision, inside the tackles. Reggie Bush didn't show a lot of either last year. Bart Scott, LB from the Ravens, laughed at the idea that they would worry about Reggie Bush as a runner.

Quote:
Surely, you don't think that Norwood, especially if he starts, will average anything close to 6.4 yards per carry.
Of course he wouldn't. That has nothing to do with my argument.

Quote:
Heck, I don't even think he will sniff 5.0 yards a carry but that's just me.
Of course you wouldn't.

Quote:
And that's not to say that he cannot be a good back or anything but I
think it is nothing but pure homerism that so many Falcons fans seem so
eager to annoint this guy as the second coming!
If any player has been prematurely anointed, it isn't Jerious Norwood, it is Reggie Bush.

Quote:
Also, go back and look at LaDainian Tomlison's rookie year. He posted over 1000 yards but his average was around the same as Reggie, it is just that had more carries. Now, this is in NO WAY, SHAPE, FORM OR FASHION, an insinuation that Bush is going to be the second L.T. But the point here is that if you do base your argument off one year of play, you might as well have suggested that Norwood did more with less opportunities than L.T. did as well. Such an argument on your part would be pure balderdash and you know it...just as it is in this case!
Except it is.

LaDainian Tomlinson played on the worst team in the NFL. He was the focal point of every defense the Chargers faced. Reggie Bush played 2nd fiddle to Deuce McAllister, who is underrated. The Saints O-Line had no problem opening holes for McAllister to run through. Defenses struggled mightily stopping him, yet had no trouble containing Bush as a runner. There is a massive difference between Tomlinson's situation last year, and Bush this year.

Quote:
Just as I told Falcons fans last year we would see when the games are played...we will see what happens this year between Bush and Norwood as the games are played this season.
I never said Norwood was the better player.
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Old 05-14-2007, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
bush because he's hitting kim kardashian
Who hasn't? haha
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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Old 05-14-2007, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Not sure if this has been said but...

Reggie Bush- 4.33
Devin Hester- 4.27

Those are each of their pro day times.
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Old 05-14-2007, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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Go Shiver!! Whoot!

You mess with the bull....You get the horns. :D
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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Old 05-14-2007, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Most of your post was superfluous. I merely cut right to the point. I never said Norwood was "faster," nor did I claim Bush didn't show slight improvements as a player as the season went along.



It did refute part of your argument. Which was Norwood made his big runs when the games were late in the game, or on 3rd down. That point had no merit, and I made sure to debunk it.



That is an irrelevant point. Every team in the NFL uses zone blocking principles, it's just that a few teams use it exclusively. The Alex Gibbs' scheme didn't help Green Bay Packers, or Houston Texans' rushing attack produce "stud" Running Backs.

Deuce McAllister had no problem running behind the Saints O-Line. That's because he ran with power and vision, inside the tackles. Reggie Bush didn't show a lot of either last year. Bart Scott, LB from the Ravens, laughed at the idea that they would worry about Reggie Bush as a runner.



Of course he wouldn't. That has nothing to do with my argument.



Of course you wouldn't.



If any player has been prematurely anointed, it isn't Jerious Norwood, it is Reggie Bush.



Except it is.

LaDainian Tomlinson played on the worst team in the NFL. He was the focal point of every defense the Chargers faced. Reggie Bush played 2nd fiddle to Deuce McAllister, who is underrated. The Saints O-Line had no problem opening holes for McAllister to run through. Defenses struggled mightily stopping him, yet had no trouble containing Bush as a runner. There is a massive difference between Tomlinson's situation last year, and Bush this year.



I never said Norwood was the better player.
1.) I never said you stated that Norwood was faster. In fact, I told you that was for the other two individuals in this thread who made that claim.

2.) You cannot refute an "entire" argument with just "one" example.

3.) There are only two teams that effectively run the ZBS and they bought were taught by Alex Gibbs: Denver and Atlanta. Citing Green Bay and Houston does nothing to take away from the argument I made. Norwood has good enough speed to be effective in a ZBS that stresses being able to make that one cut.

4.) First of all, the Saints offensive line acquited itself well at pass blocking throughout the entire season. But the run-blocking was not as effective as some might be led to believe. The line begin to gel as the season progressed. Also, you mention that Deuce did well. But I already EXPLAINED that Reggie's issues had more to do with the decisions he was making, not defenses stopping him and certainly not a lack of vision. He saw the holes, but still chose to take it outside. Again, as I said before, it was sort of a byproduct of that 44 yard run in preseason that made Reggie just believe that he could do the same thing on each play. Once he decided to alter his decisions, he had NO PROBLEMS running the football, particularly up between the tackles where some thought he could not be effective at the pro-level.

5.) You're saying "of course he wouldn't" but in the same breath using his production on the field as a sort of barometer for suggesting that Norwood is the better runner.

6.) I am glad you recognize that "I wouldn't."

7.) Bush was given the hype he was given based on his production in college. It is no different than Calvin Johnson this year. But the hype around Norwood on the Falcons message board reaches the level of sheer lunacy with people comparing him to everybody from Eric Dickerson to OJ Simpson and suggesting that he will be an 1800 yard back this season. Anything's possible but that sounds like crazy hype for a guy with a lot to still prove.

8.) First of all, one of my biggest pet peeves is when a person emphatically states that A is not B and then someone turns around and uses a rather weak explanation to suggest that you are saying A is B. I have clearly stated that I am not saying that Bush is as good or better than L.T. You use that as a red herring to get away from the true intention of my argument, which you cannot refute. That argument is this: Norwood averaged more yards-per-run than L.T. too and "SEEMINGLY" did more pound-for-pound than LT. Is he better? Because rest assured, if Norwood had been a rookie when L.T. was a rookie, I guarantee there would be Falcons fans--maybe not you--who would argue that with more carries, Norwood would have outclassed and outproduced L.T. The reason the argument is similar to the one with Bush is because you are basing your contention on Norwood being a better runner than Bush off Norwood's production, dismissing other crucial variables that better explains the difference in production between the two plays. Secondly, as I stated before, our run-blocking was not as great as you think. A lot of Deuce's yards were made just off sheer desire and determination on his part. A lot of times, he would push the pile. The blocking did get better as the year went on. We took two offensive linemen in the draft for a reason. Nesbit might be replaced by the rookie Alleman. Stinchcomb is great on pass blocking but probably one of the less-than-formidable run-blocking RTs in all the league. Brown is superb. So is Evans. And Faine does a good job. As the guys gelled, again, they did a better job. Also, people like to say that the Chargers line was so bad or the team. But outside the issues at left tackle position--which they were finally able to resolve with the selection of Marcus McNeil last year--the Chargers line is stout. Also, defenses did not contain Bush. Knowing a guy will run outside and making sure you attack the edges enough to string the play far enough outside that he runs out of bounds is not stopping Reggie Bush; it is more like playing into his hand. Reggie Bush was his own worst enemy at the beginning of the season. When he started to take the holes that were there rather than just look to go outside, he was able to make plays and defenses had to begin to play more honest against him.

9.) You never said Norwood was the better player; you just implied it and you did call him the better runner. And I am telling you that we will see when the games are played this season and, even, beyond since one year does not make a career.
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Old 05-14-2007, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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OK, Shiver and STH, I, as a divisional rival standpoint will rule in favor of Shiver. It is obvious that Norwood totally outclassed Bush as a pure RB. Other teams barely had to respect Vick and the passing attack, while these same teams had to respect Brees at all times. Which in itself opened stuff up for Bush.

Maybe just a one year thing...but Jerious as a RB was > Bush last year.
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