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Old 03-24-2013, 05:38 PM    (permalink
TheFinisher
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Being undersized upfront isn't a disadvantage in the run game if you have the speed to make up for it. Different DCs have different philosophies, Kiffin has always put a premium on speed throughout his defense, swarming to the ballcarrier, and being good open field tacklers. Jimmy Johnson built the Dallas D of the early 90s the same way.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:35 PM    (permalink
DrewyVuitton
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Being undersized upfront isn't a disadvantage in the run game if you have the speed to make up for it. Different DCs have different philosophies, Kiffin has always put a premium on speed throughout his defense, swarming to the ballcarrier, and being good open field tacklers. Jimmy Johnson built the Dallas D of the early 90s the same way.
There is really nothing anyone can say to make me believe that the Cowboys will not be at a disadvantage by having THE SMALLEST DE duo in the league. Certainly nothing you can say to make me believe its some sort of advantage to have speed.

Just based off that comment -- lets say we had Von Miller and Bruce Irvin as DE's. they would undoubtedly be the fastest DE duo in the league. They would also get the ball rammed down their throat.

If this was any other team I think people would agree. The fact that it's the Cowboys has fans looking at it as best case scenario, which isn't realistic.

Common sense and history tell us that being small up front is not a recipe for success. Kiffin never had a duo that averaged 252 lbs. NEVER. Simeon Rice was listed at 268 and Greg Spires was listed at 265. They had a 1st ballot HOFer at 3-tech and big ass booger McFarland next to him.

The NFL has only gotten bigger, stronger, faster since those days giving us an NFL average of 274 lbs at DE. That's 22lbs heavier than avg weight of our starting DE's. and don't forget they've never played this position in the pro's and Ware hasn't been able to stay healthy for 2 seasons.

I will site Freeney and Mathis again -- they had as much speed as this duo and they routinely were being run over for the Colts. the Colts success was based on getting ahead, forcing teams to pass, and setting the DE's loose.

Do you have confidence that these Cowboys, who I believe trailed in every game last season, are going to be able to get ahead and force teams to go pass heavy? I don't.

And I really have to disagree that speed can make up for size in the run game. Ratliff has been one of the quickest NT's to ever play the position but his speed never made up for his lack of size at the nose vs the run game.

He's always been a premium pass rusher, and solid against the run, especially given his size, but he's never been a top tier run stopper due to being undersized.

You could make an argument that they'll be so good rushing the passer that it'll somewhat offset them being undersized in vs the run but to say there is no disadvantage is completely ridiculous.

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Old 03-24-2013, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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I don't want Durant to leave without a contract.

Would have a really solid core of LB's with that signing. I wouldn't mind it. The only disadvantage is see is stunting the progress of Wilber or Albright who may be able to perform just as well, are younger & cheaper.

If the team doesn't have faith in Wilbur/Albright, than they should absolutely sign Durant.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:30 PM    (permalink
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Would have a really solid core of LB's with that signing. I wouldn't mind it. The only disadvantage is see is stunting the progress of Wilber or Albright who may be able to perform just as well, are younger & cheaper.

If the team doesn't have faith in Wilbur/Albright, than they should absolutely sign Durant.
I had quietly wanted to sign Durant. I'm glad to see he's coming in for a visit. If we can sign him we'd have some solid depth at LB.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:32 PM    (permalink
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I had quietly wanted to sign Durant. I'm glad to see he's coming in for a visit. If we can sign him we'd have some solid depth at LB.
I'm not sure how the LB rotation will work, or what is ideal, but I was under the impression with us having a Mike(Sean Lee) and a Will(Bruce Carter) we would be looking for a Sam and Durant is in the exact same mold as Bruce Carter. I'm not sure exactly how that would work, I would rather lose some speed there and take a guy who can take on blockers and mix it up a little more. Durant likes to be free and fly to the ball, but all our LB's now are starting to look all the same, including Ernie Sims.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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This is annoying to me. So anytime you don't agree with something, and someone else does, it's only because their a Cowboy fan right? I hate when people use that lazy excuse, yea let's just all disagree with every move and ***** about it to look cool and not get accused of being a homer that's much better right?


I've seen Ware & Spencer both set the edge against the run against multiple blockers, at their listed weights, and do a great job. Spencer has been doing that since day one, Ware takes pride in that and loves to bring it up in interviews that he's just not a pass rusher. I do understand the difference in schemes trust me but I'm not naive enough to just look at a listed weight from years ago and assume that our DE's will suck because of their weight, not because of what I've seen.


I don't know why you think think your opinion is more important then everyone else, or that this place is full of raging homers, but your arrogance with some of your responses is glaring. People will have different opinions but if your just going to get lazy and say "hahaha Cowboy homer you just agree with the moves they made because your a fan" it dilutes the conversation here and makes those type of accusation far worse then any homer post you might see.
First, I could care less about disagreeing with moves just to be different. It has nothing to do with being cool.

Second, that wasnt a lazy excuse. I cited numbers, NFL averages, Kiffin's history, the Colts and the Seattle D that everyone here thinks this team can be.

I'd say your claim that "I've seen them set the edge and they're good" is a much lazier "excuse" because there is no factual basis. It's just your opinion, which happens to be extremely homer.

And you've only seen them set the edge with 5 lineman, not 4. Yes, they are good vs the run as OLB's w a 5 man line -- that is nothing like being in a 4 man line.

My opinions aren't skewed with the obvious bias of "Longhorns Legend" or a Texas native. This board is filled with raging homers -- what do you think most these people are? Everyone here likes their team so much that they had to create an online account to talk with other mega fans of the team.

There is an obvious and rampant homer problem. To suggest otherwise just shows your ignorance, not my arrogance.

If you'd like, I'll create a thread in the main forum asking what people think about having the lightest DE duo in the league and if it will be a problem. I'm just not sure if you want to torture yourself by reading the responses.

As far as being "annoying" -- acting as if there is no possible way this experiment could fail could be viewed as annoying or unrealistic to some people. Like me.

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Old 03-24-2013, 09:27 PM    (permalink
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Thank you for gracing us with your infallible thoughts Drewy. Your logical is undeniable I'm not sure why people here even attempt to debunk your analysis.

With that out of the way other teams run small fronts with players much less capable of defending the run. Niners come to mind. Dallas comes to mind over the past few seasons.

Dallas has played plenty of snaps with Ware and Spencer as DEs on a 4 man line against 3 WR sets. Spencer only has led all OLBs in tackles and is widely praised for his work in run support. I also wouldn't doubt Dallas moving to Crawford at DE on obvious running downs given that Kiffin has him beefing up according to his twitter.

I'm not sure why you get the pass from D-Unit unlike some of the other posters who openly insult others on the board but that's a story for another day. Tearing the other members of the forum down doesn't make you look any smarter. If you have the need to insult others why not head back to twitter?

Wanted to note that BloggingtheBeast is a good source though. JimmyK does a lot of nice articles even when he moonlights over at BloggingtheBoys on fanshots/fanposts.

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Old 03-24-2013, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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D-Unit doesn't give me a pass. Never has. But disagreeing with people for being full homers isn't an offense on these message boards.

Niners? Man, it just gets better and better with these comparisons. First, they run a 3-4 and second, although they may be undersized at the nose they have quality DE's like Justin Smith & the 2 best ILB's in the league.. But sure, we can compare apples to oranges if you want.

Honestly, go ahead and debunk my analysis. We seem to have a reoccurring theme on these boards -- I post facts and evidence in support of my opinion.

The homers then rebut my points with opinion & more opinion.

The facts, please. If you want to impress me, how about finding some OLB's who converted to DE and made a successful transition?

How about find a pair of 4-3 DE's as light as Ware & Spencer in the past 10 years and letti me know what kind of success they had.

Why not give me something -- anything -- other than your opinion? I'd welcome it.

But I guess that's too much to ask. Instead I get lashing out and crying like babies towards me because I refuse to follow the circus that has won 1 playoff game in the past 17 years. I refuse to get behind signing players who are poor fits and extending them for big money into their mid 30's. I don't subscribe to that.
Strawman more. The Niners ran a bunch of 4 man lines with two undersized defensive ends. Isn't that what you asked for? Hit the tape if you don't trust the evidence I'm providing. It's as valid as your evidence. Check your main forum thread for the exact same details I just provided. Goes against your word though so I'm not sure you want to check it. The guy posted there is a 49ers "homer" (since everyone on this forum lacks the unbiased scouting prowess of yourself) and already explained they ran a bunch of sets with Aldon Smith and Ahmad Brooks as defensive ends. Keep in mind that both Ware and Spencer are VASTLY better against the run than their 49er counterparts. That being said Justin Smith is better than our entire interior line.

Conversions? Both Ware and Spencer were collegiate defensive ends. Even rudimentary level scouting done by rhesus monkeys could of done that. Do I need to post my google results for that or is the evidence of them playing at Troy and Purdue at the defensive end position enough for you? Of course projecting success based on college position is an inaccurate science at best otherwise every team in the NFL would have a 100% draft success rate.

The "facts" you posted were that Dallas will be undersized. Yes. I agree 100% we will be the smallest DE duo in the league. After that point EVERYTHING mentioned about problems defending the run, etc, is purely speculation and an opinion. So unless you can point me to a post between here and there were someone argued that Dallas isn't undersized at defensive end your rant about opinions vs facts is moot.

I do agree with the overall theme of your post though. I am not happy with the idea of extending Spencer when I see a more traditional fit in Tyrone Crawford being available. I sincerely hope that this is a one-year stopgap until we have drafted or developed his replacement. The playoff drought is unacceptable as is the teams inability to protect key assets on the team. As far as whether they fit that remains to be seen.

Not a single person here said you were required to agree with anyone else. You can do so without being childish and insulting other posters. Their opinion is just as valid as yours even if they don't feel the need to hop on twitter and blow up the "experts". Quotes used very loosely as the majority have no business being called experts. By the way the insults are where I am referring to D-Unit giving you a pass. Bob, CBDC, and multiple others in the same vein had the same reoccurring theme of insulting other members of the board in order to get their point across.

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Old 03-24-2013, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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Strawman more. The Niners ran a bunch of 4 man lines with two undersized defensive ends. Isn't that what you asked for? Hit the tape if you don't trust the evidence I'm providing. It's as valid as your evidence. Check your main forum thread for the exact same details I just provided. Goes against your word though so I'm not sure you want to check it. The guy posted there is a 49ers "homer" (since everyone on this forum lacks the unbiased scouting prowess of yourself) and already explained they ran a bunch of sets with Aldon Smith and Ahmad Brooks as defensive ends. Keep in mind that both Ware and Spencer are VASTLY better against the run than their 49er counterparts. That being said Justin Smith is better than our entire interior line.

Conversions? Both Ware and Spencer were collegiate defensive ends. Even rudimentary level scouting done by rhesus monkeys could of done that. Do I need to post my google results for that or is the evidence of them playing at Troy and Purdue at the defensive end position enough for you? Of course projecting success based on college position is an inaccurate science at best otherwise every team in the NFL would have a 100% draft success rate.

The "facts" you posted were that Dallas will be undersized. Yes. I agree 100% we will be the smallest DE duo in the league. After that point EVERYTHING mentioned about problems defending the run, etc, is purely speculation and an opinion. So unless you can point me to a post between here and there were someone argued that Dallas isn't undersized at defensive end your rant about opinions vs facts is moot.

I do agree with the overall theme of your post though. I am not happy with the idea of extending Spencer when I see a more traditional fit in Tyrone Crawford being available. I sincerely hope that this is a one-year stopgap until we have drafted or developed his replacement. The playoff drought is unacceptable as is the teams inability to protect key assets on the team. As far as whether they fit that remains to be seen.

Not a single person here said you were required to agree with anyone else. You can do so without being childish and insulting other posters. Their opinion is just as valid as yours even if they don't feel the need to hop on twitter and blow up the "experts". Quotes used very loosely as the majority have no business being called experts. By the way the insults are where I am referring to D-Unit giving you a pass. Bob, CBDC, and multiple others in the same vein had the same reoccurring theme of insulting other members of the board in order to get their point across.
1 -- I'm talking base D, not nickel. Obviously we have a large sample size of Spencer & Ware playing DE in the nickel.

2 -- your quip about google completely missed the point. I know they were DE's in college. I also know they were drafted to play OLB because NFL teams weren't high on them as undersized DE's.

I said give me an example of OLB's that have made a successful transition back to DE at the pro level. That's your homework.

As for facts, here are some more.

Avg weight of Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis = 256.5 -- a mere 4lb difference from Ware & Spencer

They spent the majority of their careers playing in a 4-3 front on a tamp-2 team primarily coached by the God Father of the Tampa-2, Tony Dungy

Dungy was the creator of the Tampa -2 while in Tampa Bay and taught it to Kiffen according to Chareen Williams.

That undersized front never finished higher than 15th in Rush defense from 2003-2011, which was when they ran the same front the Cowboys will be running. Not only did they fail to crack the top 15, but finished as low as 32 and spent every year in the bottom 3rd of the league with the exception of 2 seasons within that stretch.

That undersized front also played with Peyton Manning and one of the premier offenses of all time. They typically played from AHEAD, allowing the undersized DE's to rush the passer thus reducing the pressure on them to stop the run.

So despite having Peyton Manning and an offense built to perfectly compliment the defense, they failed to ever finish in the top half of the league in rush defense and spent the majority in the bottom 3rd.

So coming back to your comment of fact vs opinion. Here are a nice grips of facts supporting what I'm suggesting. This is the best comparison in terms of size and scheme you will get for what to expect from Spencer & Ware

Again, you bring to me an opinion. And only an opinion. And the circle of idiocy continues.

Come now children, if you don't giving more effort, I can't let you pass the 5th grade.

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Old 03-25-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Ware is around 270 lbs currently and is great vs the run both in a 2 point and 3 point stance. Spencer is around 260 and is a great run defender in both 2 and 3 point stances.

Your ends aren't a concern. They'll be just fine. It's a lot easier for a 34 OLB to transition to 43 End than vice versa. You can be a little stiff and play 4-3 End, but you need flexibility to play OLB. Those guys, as long as they can hold their weight in a 4-3 which both Spencer and Ware have no problem doing, will be just fine rushing from the ground. They do it half the time anyway.

The thought that the nickel front doesn't matter bc it's a passing down is inaccurate. You still have run keys when you go nickel. Teams still run vs the nickel. Your nickel defense is your base defense anyway.

The front will be fine. You need to be concerned about your safeties, not your DEs. Your front 7 is fine. Maybe there's concern at DT, but DE and LB core will transition fine in this defense.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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Some people think it makes them better fans to just belittle and down every move the Cowboys makes. Somehow if you agree with anything, no matter what, your a homer and can't obviously see past your homer ways, I mean look at your username lolololzzzzz...


You guys crack me up. Talk down on a forum for years yet consistently still show up and spend time to post and come back after being banned. I have been to a ton of forums that are full of Cowboy homers on the internet and I hated it, guess what I did? Stopped posting. It was pretty simple to me.


I also know better then to accuse everyone of being a homer who doesn't agree with you. I come here to read different opinions of Cowboy fans and insight. I don't have to post PFF statistics with a link after every post, after all it's just my opinion from someone who watches games. Never did I, or anyone claim to be a former scout with All 22 film that watches players over and over. Best it gets is dvr'ing the games to re-watch, if that's not good enough for you then you've obviously missed the point of a forum and are in the wrong place to begin with.


All these post end up the same:

1) Cowboys make move, doesn't matter how big or small
2) Drewy states why it is stupid and doesn't make sense
3) You say you don't agree
4) You're a homer, look at your username. This board is always the same.
5) Belittle all the post that don't agree with you, talk about how baseless their opinion is and laugh about the state of this board


Then repeat through the off-season. Unfortunately I get the feeling people don't understand the purpose of what the 'team forum' is actually for when you start to call people out for their opinion by their username and if it's related to the Cowboys. So if you're username is 'Go Cowboys' obviously your a homer and can't be objective but if you're username is 'LOL@JerrahJones' then obviously you're 100% objective and not a homer so you're opinion matters more. Really high school around here which is sad but the people who complain about it here and come back repeatedly don't grasp how laughable that really is.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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I read Huff is visiting today. What is the point if we don't have any money? I'm confused...He has a few more visits lined up after us and he probably gets signed by mid to end of the week.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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I read Huff is visiting today. What is the point if we don't have any money? I'm confused...He has a few more visits lined up after us and he probably gets signed by mid to end of the week.
Maybe it's me being a homer, but I think it means that they think either the Romo or Spencer deal is very close.

I think they can probably give Huff the parameters of a deal and tell him once Romo is done, we can sign.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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The extension with Romo must be really close to being done. With only 120,000 or so to spend, we wouldn't even be able to afford to think of these players we're bringing in. Romo deal will get done, and we'll sign 2-3 cheap players on small contracts.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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Guys, I think we are getting a little off pace here. I removed any post on this page with pointless banter. Everyone is going to have their own personality and their own thoughts. The banter in here actually ruins the reason why people are coming to this thread to find thoughts and information on the cowboys. If you wanna bicker...do it in regards to the topic at hand. Don't make this a poster issue. If you have a problem with someone I think PM would be a better place for the argument. No need to have to filter through 50% of the posts on this page just to find out what is going on with the cowboys.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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Guys, I think we are getting a little off pace here. I removed any post on this page with pointless banter. Everyone is going to have their own personality and their own thoughts. The banter in here actually ruins the reason why people are coming to this thread to find thoughts and information on the cowboys. If you wanna bicker...do it in regards to the topic at hand. Don't make this a poster issue. If you have a problem with someone I think PM would be a better place for the argument. No need to have to filter through 50% of the posts on this page just to find out what is going on with the cowboys.
So it's okay for someone to be an arrogant condescending pr*ck, but you're telling us to not call them on it?
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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Dan Graziano @espn_nfceast
Romo deal hours away 4 years 68 million 30 guaranteed
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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Dan Graziano @espn_nfceast
Romo deal hours away 4 years 68 million 30 guaranteed
I was just coming to say, we more then likely have his, and/or Spencer's deal lined up today, because there is literally no way that Huff would make it to Baltimore and not sign. They have no Safeties, we have to take advantage of the visit today. Let's hope the Irving native wants to return to home.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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Dan Graziano @espn_nfceast
Romo deal hours away 4 years 68 million 30 guaranteed
Knew that was coming :) I was pretty close on the numbers as well :D

BIG NOTE: This was a re-tweet not officially reported anywhere so it may be false :(

Quote:
Step 5. Negotiate a New 5-year Contract for Tony Romo
Get Romo to sign a new $85 million contract
Include a $25 million signing bonus, plus a $2.5 million first year salary
Include $40 million guaranteed (2nd year salary of $13.5 million guaranteed)
New 2013 Cap Number - $12,818,833
Total 2013 Cap Savings - $4,000,000
68/4 = 17 million per including guarantees.
85/5 = 17 million per including guarantees.

I'm actually a huge fan as I think that's under market value given the deal Flacco signed. Heck even compared to some older contracts like Eli Manning (7 year 106 milion - 35 million guaranteed) it looks favorable considering Eli signed that deal in 2009.

I imagine this means we'll be signing a couple free agents on Monday and leaving around $5m cap room open for rookies unless we plan on making additional moves prior to signing.

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Old 03-25-2013, 02:06 PM    (permalink
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The only thing that sits bad with me is the timing of this whole thing, we rewward Romo with a big payday after the way he collapsed *again* last year. He has all the leverage. We have no other option at QB, no money for other players, it was basically a no brainer. Seems like we have to pay for regular season stats but it is what it is. He's still a high end QB even without the clutch gene, and we can get a few mid level signings.


I honestly don't even want anyone except Huff and Moore, curious who else we are looking atl. I'd rather carry some money over if possible.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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I love bargain shopping...lets fills so depth issues and get ready for the draft. Romo deal being close is nice...go sign some one year deals Jerry and Stephen!
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Ware is around 270 lbs currently and is great vs the run both in a 2 point and 3 point stance. Spencer is around 260 and is a great run defender in both 2 and 3 point stances.

Your ends aren't a concern. They'll be just fine. It's a lot easier for a 34 OLB to transition to 43 End than vice versa. You can be a little stiff and play 4-3 End, but you need flexibility to play OLB. Those guys, as long as they can hold their weight in a 4-3 which both Spencer and Ware have no problem doing, will be just fine rushing from the ground. They do it half the time anyway.

The thought that the nickel front doesn't matter bc it's a passing down is inaccurate. You still have run keys when you go nickel. Teams still run vs the nickel. Your nickel defense is your base defense anyway.

The front will be fine. You need to be concerned about your safeties, not your DEs. Your front 7 is fine. Maybe there's concern at DT, but DE and LB core will transition fine in this defense.
Ware is not at 270 and never has been. Listed on the official website, espn, and NFL.com at the weights I posted.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Ware is not at 270 and never has been. Listed on the official website, espn, and NFL.com at the weights I posted.
Yeah. Too bad those weights are from his rookie year and are not accurate at all. Ware is easily 270. Tuck is 270 and Ware is bigger than him.

Wilfork is listed at 325. You think he's really 325? Come on man.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Yeah. Too bad those weights are from his rookie year and are not accurate at all. Ware is easily 270. Tuck is 270 and Ware is bigger than him.

Wilfork is listed at 325. You think he's really 325? Come on man.
Did you just say Ware is bigger than Tuck? Lol. You come on, that's the most insane thing I've heard.

And those aren't from rookie years. Ware bulked up into the 260's when playing for Parcells and cut back down into the 250's when Wade became coach to gain speed.

All the LB's did. It's well documented.

The weights I posted are more accurate than this random 270 you threw out and "bigger than Tuck" -- He's not even close to being as big as Tuck.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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Did you just say Ware is bigger than Tuck? Lol. You come on, that's the most insane thing I've heard.

And those aren't from rookie years. Ware bulked up into the 260's when playing for Parcells and cut back down into the 250's when Wade became coach to gain speed.

All the LB's did. It's well documented.

The weights I posted are more accurate than this random 270 you threw out and "bigger than Tuck" -- He's not even close to being as big as Tuck.
Yes. Yes he is.

Compare what Ware looked like his rookie year to now. It's obvious he's bigger. You pack on weight as you age.

This whole weight argument is nonsense to begin with. Jason Taylor played at 230 lbs and was just fine as a DE against the run. Ware has played in a 3 point stance and played the run well in it. Your whole argument of them failing in that role is fabricated and makes no sense at all.
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