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Old 05-18-2007, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by reese View Post
donnie edwards avg about 7.5 tkls a game and has 3 of his 12 seasons over 150...but 1 reasons he has so many tkls is he has only missed like 3 games in 12 years
Right, but then his tkls a game stats are adjusted accordinly to the games he played...just like Lewis' and Thomas' would be. And still, tackles...not a great indicator of talent.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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last 5 years...ZT 776 TKLS....BL 599....thats a pretty big difference
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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ok we will go with 2006 then ZT 165 tkls BL 141...and how do u figure tkls isnt a good indicator? that doesnt even make any sense...so i guess a lb with less tkls is better then one with more? and im not talkin about 1 season either...
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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and edwards hasnt had more tkls then thomas or lewis
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by reese View Post
last 5 years...ZT 776 TKLS....BL 599....thats a pretty big difference
Right, and like I said....tackles do not indicate a players ability on defense. There are so many other factor that go into being a defensive player, and the best around at that.

I haven't said that ZT and RL aren't great players, but they aren't as good as Urlacher anymore. You can chalk up ZT's tackles to anything, more plays on defense, less impact players around him that force him to make all the tackles, more teams run against them, etc. Tackles are not a good stat to judge players by...no stats are good to judge players by.

Kitna threw for more yards then Carson Palmer last year, Cato June had more tackles then Urlacher, but no one would say he's a better player just based off of that.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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ok we will go with 2006 then ZT 165 tkls BL 141...and how do u figure tkls isnt a good indicator?
And how do I figure tackles aren't a good indicator? Because of all the external factors regarding the tackles, and the actaul innacuracies involved with that kind of stat-keeping, thats how. A better indicator, if you are going to use tackles, are solo tackles. In which, last year Thomas had 103 to Urlacher's 92. Not a huge difference.

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that doesnt even make any sense...so i guess a lb with less tkls is better then one with more? and im not talkin about 1 season either...
Don't try and make a ridiculous absurd statement to make it sound like what I am saying is absurd, its not. Why would I ever say that less tackles is better? I said the innacuraices, and exterior factors that go into tackles make it a relatviely insignifcant stat, not that it carries no weight.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Right, and like I said....tackles do not indicate a players ability on defense. There are so many other factor that go into being a defensive player, and the best around at that.

I haven't said that ZT and RL aren't great players, but they aren't as good as Urlacher anymore. You can chalk up ZT's tackles to anything, more plays on defense, less impact players around him that force him to make all the tackles, more teams run against them, etc. Tackles are not a good stat to judge players by...no stats are good to judge players by.

Kitna threw for more yards then Carson Palmer last year, Cato June had more tackles then Urlacher, but no one would say he's a better player just based off of that.
ok like i said im not talkin about 1 years worth of stats..anyone can have a good year. but ZT consitantly has put up better numbers and to say numbers dont matter isnt smart...i guess we should down play LT scoring alot of tds becuz he gets the ball alot....or manning throwing for alot or yards cuz the colts pass alot...its not like were talkin about a handfull of tkls almost 200 more over the past 5 years come on now
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wogitalia View Post
QB - Peyton Manning
RB - State the bleedingly obvious
FB - Lorenzo Neal
WR - Marvin Harrison
OT - Marcus McNeil
OG - Steve Hutchinson
C - Nick Mangold
DE - Julius Peppers
DT - Vince Wilfork
OLB - Shawne Merriman/AJ Hawk
MLB - Brian Urlacher
CB - Champ Bailey
S - Ed Reed

Surprisingly little debate at most positions.

I'm a Charger fan and even I wouldn't take Marcus McNeill over Walter Jones, Pace, Ogden or even Roaf off his couch. Maybe in a few years. The kid IS dominant, and was playing with two broken hands.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by reese View Post
ok like i said im not talkin about 1 years worth of stats..anyone can have a good year. but ZT consitantly has put up better numbers and to say numbers dont matter isnt smart...i guess we should down play LT scoring alot of tds becuz he gets the ball alot....or manning throwing for alot or yards cuz the colts pass alot...its not like were talkin about a handfull of tkls almost 200 more over the past 5 years come on now
I didn't once say numbers weren't important, or anything like that so just stop putting words in my mouth.

Who cares what player has put up better numbers....Like I said Edwards has consistently put up better numbers then Urlacher, don't honestly tell me you'd rather have him then Urlacher. Stats are influenced by a lot of factors, and your bringing LT into the argument, or Manning doesn't change that. Should we disregard their numbers? If we're arguing whose the better player on stats alone then yes, we should. LT does touch the ball more in the redzone, it makes him more likely to score. The Colts do have a good passing attack, it makes it easier for Manning to succeed.

I don't care about their five year numbers, I don't care too much about their numbers....I acknowledge them but I don't judge a linebacker based on tackles alone.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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ok well if u dont judge a LB by tkls then what do u judge him by? what does a LB have to do to be the best besides be 6'4 250 and wear number 54 and play for the bears
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SNIPER26 View Post
Harrison is way too soft for my liking. Get physical with him and he disappears
WOW, what a stupid statement.

If this was true then he wouldn't be able to put up monster numbers in EVERY season.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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ok well if u dont judge a LB by tkls then what do u judge him by? what does a LB have to do to be the best besides be 6'4 250 and wear number 54 and play for the bears
Stupid statement. Leadership, impact plays, clutch-ness, pass defense, ability to get the D off the field....a number of intagibles that aren't statistics.

Tackles are a way to judge a LB, jesus I didn't say they weren't, but you haven't made any points aside from those that Thomas has had more tackles, which could be chalked up to less talent around him then Urlacher, which has allowed him to get more tackles.

EDIT: Also, for the record I'm not saying ZT isn't a good, top 5 linebacker....I just don't think he's number one, or that there is even a clear cut number one linebacker.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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QB- Peyton Manning
RB- LT
FB- Lorenzo Neal
WR- Marvin Harrison
TE- Antonio Gates
OT- Orlando Pace
OG- Alan Faneca
C- Olin Kruetz

DE- Julius Peppers
DT- John Henderson
NT- Jamal Williams
OE- Jason Taylor
5DE- Richard Seymour
RLB- Shawne Merriman
OLB- Julian Peterson
MLB- Brian Urlacher
ILB- Zach Thomas
CB- Champ Bailey
S- Ed Reed
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JK17 View Post
Stupid statement. Leadership, impact plays, clutch-ness, pass defense, ability to get the D off the field....a number of intagibles that aren't statistics.

Tackles are a way to judge a LB, jesus I didn't say they weren't, but you haven't made any points aside from those that Thomas has had more tackles, which could be chalked up to less talent around him then Urlacher, which has allowed him to get more tackles.
Well Miami consistently has a top 5 defense, so it isn't really talent. Tackles aren't the best way to evaluate LBs though, it's part of the convo, but like all stats it's not all of it.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by draftguru151 View Post
Well Miami consistently has a top 5 defense, so it isn't really talent. Tackles aren't the best way to evaluate LBs though, it's part of the convo, but like all stats it's not all of it.
True, Chicago does as well, so that might be more of an irrelevant point...like I said I won't lie I haven't done a lot of research going into this conversation so I won't pretend to be an expert on that...

My main irritation with this argument is that it has revolved around nothing but statistics.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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so ur sayin BL is a better leader, makes more impact plays, and all that stuff then ZT? how can u prove that? u dont kno if BL or ZT is a good leader. they probley both r but there sure isnt a way to prove who is more of a leader. how could BU make more impact plays when he doesnt make as many plays as ZT. obviously is thomas is makin more tkls then he is makin more plays simply cuz of odds if anything...i mean 20 some odd more tkls this past season means 20 some odd more chances to make an impact play...
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JK17 View Post
True, Chicago does as well, so that might be more of an irrelevant point...like I said I won't lie I haven't done a lot of research going into this conversation so I won't pretend to be an expert on that...

My main irritation with this argument is that it has revolved around nothing but statistics.
thats cuz stats are the only thing u can prove...like i said u can prove who is a better leader or any of the other intangibles u listed
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by reese View Post
so ur sayin BL is a better leader, makes more impact plays, and all that stuff then ZT? how can u prove that? u dont kno if BL or ZT is a good leader. they probley both r but there sure isnt a way to prove who is more of a leader. how could BU make more impact plays when he doesnt make as many plays as ZT. obviously is thomas is makin more tkls then he is makin more plays simply cuz of odds if anything...i mean 20 some odd more tkls this past season means 20 some odd more chances to make an impact play...
He is just saying that there are more than tackles when it comes to judging LBs.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by reese View Post
so ur sayin BL is a better leader, makes more impact plays, and all that stuff then ZT? how can u prove that? u dont kno if BL or ZT is a good leader. they probley both r but there sure isnt a way to prove who is more of a leader. how could BU make more impact plays when he doesnt make as many plays as ZT. obviously is thomas is makin more tkls then he is makin more plays simply cuz of odds if anything...i mean 20 some odd more tkls this past season means 20 some odd more chances to make an impact play...
Okay I really don't want to be a spelling nazi here, but you have to type neater so I can understand your argument.

It's not an easy thing to prove, but in terms of being a leader, you could look at how Urlacher led a defense that carried the team to the Super Bowl. He wasn't the only factor in that, but he sure as hell helped.

Besides, those weren't all categories I said urlacher is better in. I said there are other ways then tackles to judge a player, which you refused to admit.

And don't give me any odds BS like that, thats ridiculous, 20 more tackles means nothing considering impact plays don't have to be tackles, they could be deflected passes, taking on a blocker that freed up a teamate to make a tackle, anything like that.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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thats cuz stats are the only thing u can prove...like i said u can prove who is a better leader or any of the other intangibles u listed
You can prove stats, but they don't mean the whole thing. Whatever though, you seem convicned its the only way of measuring a player.
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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if u cant read what i said then ur ignorant or tryin to be funny cuz im willin to bet nobody else has trouble reading it...and just cuz they went to the super bowl doesnt mean he is a better leader...is rex grossman a better leader then other qbs cuz he 'led' the bears to the super bowl?
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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You can prove stats, but they don't mean the whole thing. Whatever though, you seem convicned its the only way of measuring a player.
one thing u have yet to do is tell me 1 single thing that u kno for a fact that BU is better then ZT....im just askin for 1 that u kno for sure
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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if u cant read what i said then ur ignorant or tryin to be funny cuz im willin to bet nobody else has trouble reading it...and just cuz they went to the super bowl doesnt mean he is a better leader...is rex grossman a better leader then other qbs cuz he 'led' the bears to the super bowl?
No...but punctuation, capitalizing errors, and common sense grammatical mistakes makes things easier to understand, not that I couldn't figure it out.

Um, as far as the leadership/SB thing, I said there were other factors it was just one thing. And no, it wouldn't make Rex a better QB, I said it was the defense that got them there, so that is certainly in Urlachers argument.

Jesus, just back off your ridiculous idea that stats are the only way to judge a player....they're not.
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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I did not know that I needed to write my post with the same care that I write my english papers.
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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one thing u have yet to do is tell me 1 single thing that u kno for a fact that BU is better then ZT....im just askin for 1 that u kno for sure
Could've been included in your other post, didn't need to make a second just for this, but fine.

One thing Urlacher does better is cover the pass....since you said for a fact the only thing I can use as a fact is stats, since everything else is opinion (like it should be). But urlacher is better in coverage then Thomas, last year he had 3 interceptions to Thomas' 0, and over the past 3 years he has 4 to Thomas' 2.

But I'm not aruging stats, the rest is opinion and you can debate it however you want...but you started off and continued your argument solely on stats, which is why I got in this argument in the first place, not neccesarily because I feel strongly about either player, just that personally I see Urlacher to be the better player, based on how I view his intagibles.
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