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Old 05-18-2007, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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Cato June had more tackles than Lance Briggs in 2006. 142 vs. 134

I dare you to find me someone who says that Cato June is a better OLB or even in the same ball park as Lance Briggs.

Even when comparing the same position in identical schemes, tackles are a horrible metric. There isn't an adequate metric for quantifying linebackers so all you can do is watch them play and make decisions form there. I think if you wanted to assign a metric to linebackers you would have to compile a percentage of missed tackles for amount of plays involved in. Even then you would be neglecting the coverage aspect of modern linebackers.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by reese View Post
I did not know that I needed to write my post with the same care that I write my english papers.
Whatever you don't just make it intellgible. Okay, I gotta get going I have somewhere to be tonight, I'll leave you saying that I don't care about your stats argument as a reason for Thomas being better. Personally I see Urlacher as a better leader and player, if you don't thats your opinion, I'm not forcing Urlacher down your throat. I just want you to back off your argument that tackles are the only indication of a player's ability.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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Cato June had more tackles than Lance Briggs in 2006. 142 vs. 134

I dare you to find me someone who says that Cato June is a better OLB or even in the same ball park as Lance Briggs.

Even when comparing the same position in identical schemes, tackles are a horrible metric. There isn't an adequate metric for quantifying linebackers so all you can do is watch them play and make decisions form there. I think if you wanted to assign a metric to linebackers you would have to compile a percentage of missed tackles for amount of plays involved in. Even then you would be neglecting the coverage aspect of modern linebackers.

u must have not read the post when i said that 1 years worth of stats isnt what im talkin about...so what that 1 player might have done better then another 1 year...im talkin about consistance
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Whatever you don't just make it intellgible. Okay, I gotta get going I have somewhere to be tonight, I'll leave you saying that I don't care about your stats argument as a reason for Thomas being better. Personally I see Urlacher as a better leader and player, if you don't thats your opinion, I'm not forcing Urlacher down your throat. I just want you to back off your argument that tackles are the only indication of a player's ability.
so the best thing u can come up with is bl has 2 more pics in the last 3 years?
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Is anyone that thinks Ray Lewis and Zach Thomas are currently better than Urlacher really worth 3 pages or debate? It's a stupid argument. If he wants to think it, let him, very few people will agree.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Is anyone that thinks Ray Lewis and Zach Thomas are currently better than Urlacher really worth 3 pages or debate? It's a stupid argument. If he wants to think it, let him, very few people will agree.
tell me y BU is better then ZT
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by reese View Post
so the best thing u can come up with is bl has 2 more pics in the last 3 years?
Okay, I'll leave one more post....

no...for the love of god...Urlacher has better intangibles IMO. Unfortunately, no numbers cover that, so I can't use that as an argument. Aside from tackles, interceptions, and sacks are really the only strong measurement on a linebacker. Traditionally Urlacher is good with sacks, though last year he had a hiccup. So I included the other one, interceptions.

That means, of the three basic statistical areas, Thomas is better with tackles, barely. Urlacher is better with Interceptions. Barely. Sacks are a wash. In terms of statistics, thats an even break down.

That's why, like I, and many other posters have said repeatedly, there are other ways to judge LB's, so your ridiculous statistical comparison is dumb, and lacks real substantial evidence.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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tell me y BU is better then ZT
In English:

"Tell me why Brian Urlacher is better than Zach Thomas." - I'll let 51' handle this one.
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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i dont even kno where to start...for 1...thomas doesnt barely have more tkls then BU..alomost 200 over 5 years isnt close...im not even gonna respond to ur coment..(so your ridiculous statistical comparison is dumb, and lacks real substantial evidence)...cuz everything in sports is based around stats...pro bowls....hall of fames..record books...all revolve around stats...so i guess i did respond to it
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by sweetness34 View Post
In English:

"Tell me why Brian Urlacher is better than Zach Thomas." - I'll let 51' handle this one.

lol...i kno u have no argument when the only thing u can come up with to say is somethin about the way i typed something
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MaxV View Post
WOW, what a stupid statement.

If this was true then he wouldn't be able to put up monster numbers in EVERY season.
Oddly enough, every time he plays a physical team such as the Pats he's nowhere to be found, with the occasional exception. Playoff numbers vs. the Ravens 4-45-0. Vs. Pats 4-41-0 vs. Bears 5-59-0. Wasn't he often nowhere to be found in the playoff games vs. the Pats when the Pats had their run?
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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tell me y BU is better then ZT
Becuase he is. Because he can do so much more than Thomas does. He's move versitile, he has better ball skills, he's quicker, he hits harder (though Thomas is a hard hitter too), he has better intangibles and size, he's won more, umm....really basically any criteria you can think of for judging a linebacker except for maybe pure tackling ability. Your argument for tackles is laughably stupid quite frankly. It's like saying Jon Kitna is a better quarterback than Tom Brady because he threw for more yards. Ten year olds make arguments based purely on statistics. Anyone that actually watches games and understands football knows that Urlacher is much better than Thomas. And that's not a knock on Thomas, it's just true.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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i dont even kno where to start...for 1...thomas doesnt barely have more tkls then BU..alomost 200 over 5 years isnt close...im not even gonna respond to ur coment..(so your ridiculous statistical comparison is dumb, and lacks real substantial evidence)...cuz everything in sports is based around stats...pro bowls....hall of fames..record books...all revolve around stats...so i guess i did respond to it
Ugh, i keep wanting to leave and get dragged back into it....I believe the number was more like 175ish, which averages out, over five years to approximately 35....Urlacher also missed seven games in 2004, but besides tackles, as has been established by every poster with a brain, as not the only way to judge a player.

Everything in sports is based around stats? Really? W-L record too? On the field impact too? Oh, you mean record books, yeah those are stats. As for Hall of Fame, they play a good deal, yes, but not to the extent your using them. Thomas may have more tackles but both have Hall of Fame stats, they aren't used to compare players as better or worse. As far as pro bowls, no they don't revolve around stats, they revolve around who had a better year, which sometimes, not always includes stats: See Vince Young in Pro Bowl.

Everything in sports does not revolve around stats, and they are not used to determine which player is better, just to determine the overall validity, in some cases of people's careers (i.e "Hall of Fame numbers")
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Actually stats often have little to do with the HOF, especially tackles, in comparison to many other variables. Go to the HOF some time, I worked their for two years. Then look at who leads what categories in stats.

If they did matter as much you think they do Dave Kreig would be in the HOF right now.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Becuase he is. Because he can do so much more than Thomas does. He's move versitile, he has better ball skills, he's quicker, he hits harder (though Thomas is a hard hitter too), he has better intangibles and size, he's won more, umm....really basically any criteria you can think of for judging a linebacker except for maybe pure tackling ability. Your argument for tackles is laughably stupid quite frankly. It's like saying Jon Kitna is a better quarterback than Tom Brady because he threw for more yards. Ten year olds make arguments based purely on statistics. Anyone that actually watches games and understands football knows that Urlacher is much better than Thomas. And that's not a knock on Thomas, it's just true.
Pure tackler=ZT
Coverage=BU
Intangibles=BU
Playmaker=BU
Heart=ZT
Leader=ZT
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Pure tackler=ZT
Coverage=BU
Intangibles=BU
Playmaker=BU
Heart=ZT
Leader=ZT
How can you qualify heart? That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. People like Zach Thomas for the same reason they like Doug Flutie. He's a stumpy guy that runs around so they think "oh what great heart he has". But in that's basically useless unless you are simply comparing all midget players in the NFL. It's like saying Garrett Wolfe has more heart than Adrian Peterson because he's smaller.

As for leadership, how many playoff games has Zach Thomas won? I'll save you the time. It's zero. How does that make him a great leader exactly?
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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Okay, looks like things are under control here, I'm out...I'll check back on this Monday and see how things ended up.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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How can you qualify heart? That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.

As for leadership, how many playoff games has Zach Thomas won? I'll save you the time. It's zero. How does that make him a great leader exactly?
Heart=IMHO, striving to be better than those have expected. Such as his size. He plays much bigger than his size.

Its a team sport a LB won't take the team to the playoffs, LMFAO
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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BTW, I am not stating that ZT is a better player than Urlacher, just stating the facts.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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Becuase he is. Because he can do so much more than Thomas does. He's move versitile, he has better ball skills, he's quicker, he hits harder (though Thomas is a hard hitter too), he has better intangibles and size, he's won more, umm....really basically any criteria you can think of for judging a linebacker except for maybe pure tackling ability. Your argument for tackles is laughably stupid quite frankly. It's like saying Jon Kitna is a better quarterback than Tom Brady because he threw for more yards. Ten year olds make arguments based purely on statistics. Anyone that actually watches games and understands football knows that Urlacher is much better than Thomas. And that's not a knock on Thomas, it's just true.
good lord..please read other post b4 u write to me....its not at all like kitna passing for more yards then brady becuz as ive already said 2 times and this will be the 3rd...1 years worth of stats is not what im talkin about...how many times has kitna done that? 1? ZT has more tkls then BU every single year...of course u think my argument is stupid becuz its not in ur favor...ask random ppl anyone at all what the 1st thing they look for is at ANY position and its production...other stuff matters and i kno that...but at the end of they day production counts the most when u talk about individual players...for some one to say that tkls doesnt matter in a discussion about linebackers is beyond ignorant...but bears fans are so taken away by their own team that they cant see things like that. also ur statement about anyone whos knos and watches football will say urlacher is better i completely disagree with...watch thomas play and theres no way u say urlacher is better.. but like i said u bears fans are not able to do things like that...and the fact that u threw size in there is the single most ignorant thing that has been said by anyone in this argument...i guess barry sanders isnt the best cuz he was too small...i guess keyshawn in better then steve smith becuz 1 is 6'4 and one is 5'9..i could go on and on about the size thing but i kno u kno better then that...u just got carried away
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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Heart=IMHO, striving to be better than those have expected. Such as his size. He plays much bigger than his size.
Who cares? Does that mean Marques Colsten has more heart than Marvin Harrison because he's done more than people expected him to.

It's a baseless comparison, it has no worth when comparing two players.

By the way I was wrong, the Dolphins have actually won two wild-card games but got smoked both times in the divisional round. And if you aren't judging leadership by playoff wins how are you judging it? Do you hang out in the lockeroom?
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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good lord..please read other post b4 u write to me....its not at all like kitna passing for more yards then brady becuz as ive already said 2 times and this will be the 3rd...1 years worth of stats is not what im talkin about...how many times has kitna done that? 1? ZT has more tkls then BU every single year...of course u think my argument is stupid becuz its not in ur favor...ask random ppl anyone at all what the 1st thing they look for is at ANY position and its production...other stuff matters and i kno that...but at the end of they day production counts the most when u talk about individual players...for some one to say that tkls doesnt matter in a discussion about linebackers is beyond ignorant...but bears fans are so taken away by their own team that they cant see things like that. also ur statement about anyone whos knos and watches football will say urlacher is better i completely disagree with...watch thomas play and theres no way u say urlacher is better.. but like i said u bears fans are not able to do things like that...and the fact that u threw size in there is the single most ignorant thing that has been said by anyone in this argument...i guess barry sanders isnt the best cuz he was too small...i guess keyshawn in better then steve smith becuz 1 is 6'4 and one is 5'9..i could go on and on about the size thing but i kno u kno better then that...u just got carried away
This isn't a Bears fan thing. This is a common sense thing. I could start a thread with a poll (and actually have done so) and Urlacher will get about 90-95% of the vote. But I'm sure that's just people buying into the media and blah blah blah....

Again, I've already stated this argument isn't worth my time or anyone elses. You're wrong. Whether you continue to believe otherwise is of no concern to me.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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Who cares? Does that mean Marques Colsten has more heart than Marvin Harrison because he's done more than people expected him to.

It's a baseless comparison, it has no worth when comparing two players.

By the way I was wrong, the Dolphins have actually won two wild-card games but got smoked both times in the divisional round. And if you aren't judging leadership by playoff wins how are you judging it? Do you hang out in the lockeroom?
So Manning decided not to be a leader until last year? Thats basically what you are saying

If you don't understand what "heart" has to do with sports then you should watch some more.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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This isn't a Bears fan thing. This is a common sense thing. I could start a thread with a poll (and actually have done so) and Urlacher will get about 90-95% of the vote. But I'm sure that's just people buying into the media and blah blah blah....

Again, I've already stated this argument isn't worth my time or anyone elses. You're wrong. Whether you continue to believe otherwise is of no concern to me.

lol of course u cant respond
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Heart=IMHO, striving to be better than those have expected. Such as his size. He plays much bigger than his size.

Its a team sport a LB won't take the team to the playoffs, LMFAO
You can't measure heart, that's just ridiculous. Ok then, Urlacher wins in determination and intensity. I don't know why he does, but he does.

Mobility/Pursuit - Urlacher
Speed - Urlacher
Coverage - Urlacher
Blitzing - Urlacher
Hitting - Same
Tackling - Thomas
Playmaking - Urlacher

Those are things you can measure and point out. Thomas is a very good player, but he's not as good as Urlacher. And that's a fact.
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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