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Old 05-30-2007, 10:33 PM    (permalink
JK17
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Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
You know Ben almost died 3 months before the season right?

And then had an apendectomy to boot.
Probably the most overhyped excuse ever...
Yes he went through an injury in the offseason. He was cleared to play though by the doctors, he couldn't have been in that bad of shape, and if he was, then he had no business playing in the first place.

He had a very poor season, there's no hiding that. In 2005 he was limited by injury too, but that was considered a good year for him....Ben got a lot of praise early for something his team did for him, now he's getting just blame for a poor season, which may or may not have been a better indicator of the QB he really is.
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Old 05-31-2007, 02:12 AM    (permalink
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I'm not trying to be a homer, but Ben has 2 good years and JP has 1. Phillip Rivers had 1 good season, when 75+% of his receptions went to LT or Gates. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't think it's seriously unbiasedly fair that JP and Rivers are ranked higher than Ben.
Yea, it was pretty close for me with Ben and J.P., and while Ben has proven himself in the past, last season was pretty bad. I feel pretty good having Losman over Roethlisberger, since J.P. had a very good season last year, and I can only see him improving in this upcomming season with a better o-line. I actually feel like I was pretty generous putting Ben at 12 considering the terrible season he had last year, but like I think he'll redeem himself next year.
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Old 05-31-2007, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
Dude...he actually has to improve first.

He has the potential to be a McNabb/Young/McNair, but right now I just don't see it. He's one of the games more overrated players.

And BTW, it is a good thing for a QB to be accurate. In fact, its part of what they're paid for.
The Titans had the 27th overall offense and the 32nd overall defense. If you don't think Vince played a massive part in the 8-8 record then you're insane. He's already one of the top fifteen quarterbacks in the league. Stop hating on the guy because he's not your typical stay in the pocket quarterback.
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Old 05-31-2007, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Exactly, the same people who prematurely hyped Michael Vick back in '03 moved onto Vince Young. Except nothing Young did last year was better than what Michael Vick has done.
Even though Vick had over a year to learn the Falcons playbook and had far better talent around him then Vince did with the Titans last year. Here's how I know Vince is going to be better than Vick. He's a far better leader and he actually acts like an adult. I highly doubt Vince will flip off a row of kids and then go back to his house and fight dogs.
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Old 05-31-2007, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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You actually think the '02 Falcons had more talent than the '06 Titans? Hilarious.
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Old 05-31-2007, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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You actually think the '02 Falcons had more talent than the '06 Titans? Hilarious.
They had the 14th best offense and 23rd best defense that year. So yes, I would say they had more talent.
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Old 05-31-2007, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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Ben's supporting cast was outstanding his two good seasons, so saying that 75% of Rivers' completions went to LT or Gates isn't fair, they just happen to be his two best receivers. Not to mention it was 45% (44.7%) that went to those twom which isn't a lot, considering they are the top two recievers. Ben had a pretty miserable season this year too, and Rivers has only had one crack at it, which he passed with flying colors, as opposted to Ben who took a serious fall his third year.

Bens first season his outstanding supporting cast was : Duce Staley, Oliver Ross, Jerame Tuman, Keydrick Vincent. Why isn't it fair to say that Rivers rode LT and Gates? Thats what everyone's makign it out to be.

As for Rivers had 1 Crack at it and he had "Flying Colors" On a Career year for LT. 1 Season, he still lost his first game in the playoffs and couldn't lead his team further. Now, How is it that Phillip has the best TE and RB in the game and is a top 10 QB because of 1 "Good/Solid" Season, Ben has 2 and a Near death experience, Emergency appendectomy, Concussion and what not, and Ben fans should be greatful you have him in the top 15. Ben took a serious fall(Though the whole team did I mean hell, Hines Ward adn Ced Wilson, our only 2 Vets at WR spent IR Time.. so did Porter, Ben, Clark, Polamalu)

Ben had 2 games this season where his 4 WR's were, Nate Washington, Santonio Holmes, Sean Morey and Walter Young. I just see that Rivers had 1 good season.

Can I ask anyone a question and get an unbiased answer?

If Ben was such a "Game Manager" and Rode His skilled team/Defense to the superbowl, Wouldn't Rivers be in the same boat? I mean, he has the best 3-4 DL in the game, The best Passrusher in the league, 2 solid MLB's, Shaun Phillips isn't anything to sneeze at either. Add that to the best TE and RB in the league. How did Rivers honestly accomplish anything more than Ben has... In his first two seasons. Ben was sacked 46 times, Phillip 27. Obviously Phillips OL was better.

I could throw this out. He does have a better winning % when throwing over 30 Passes. But he hasn't done it a lot. 9/16 games last season Rivers had thrown under 30 times, Thats always a negative under Ben, Rivers, in that situation is just a glorified game manager who is just lucky enough to have the best RB/TE and Defense in the NFL.

If you go by QB Rating.. Ben's first two seasons were both "Better" than Rivers Single season. Rivers had a 92.1%, Ben had a 98.1 and a 98.6% his first two seasons respectively.



I would have Losman in the same category as Ben right now. Losman looks like he is improving, whereas Ben looks like he may have regreseed a little bit. This season will tell. Either way though, they were all ranked closely together, four spots, in his rankings.

True, But none of them have had continuity. It's a "What have you done for me lately" type ranking. Ben had 2 great seasons, Phillip/Losman each had 1, there's no way that it's fair to judge it. Ben's Rookie and Sophmore season he outplayed both Rivers and Losmans "1 good season". I think Ben will prove to people he's better than they act, but frankly, I don't think he'll get the credit he'll deserve then either. If Ben throws 3800 yards, 30 passign attempts a game, with a QB rating of over 100, and a Completion % over 70, People will say it's because his supporting cast. He's just not going to get a fair shake in these rankings, and that bugs the hell out of me.
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Old 05-31-2007, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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HAAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! T-Jack is on there. Chad Pennigton ahould be a lot higher.
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Old 05-31-2007, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Ewing View Post
They had the 14th best offense and 23rd best defense that year. So yes, I would say they had more talent.
The Titans had a vastly superior rushing attack. Warrick Dunn had a revival under the ZBS, however this was prior to that. He only had 900 yards on 4.0 YPC. TJ Duckett is nothing special. Travis Henry nearly outdid them both, by himself.

Atlanta's top three wide receivers were: Brian Finneran, Shawn Jefferson, Trevor Gaylor. 'Nuff Said.

Atlanta's offensive line was;

LT - Bob Whitfield
LG - Travis Claridge
OC - Todd McClure
RG - Roberto Garza
RT - Todd Weiner

Solid, but not great by any stretch of the imagination.

Yet, Michael Vick had near 3,000 yards, thirteen yards per completion, 2:1 TD/INT ratio, passing. He also added 777 yards and eight touchdowns rushing. He willed his team to most of its wins. His OT run against the Vikings is still an all time great play.
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Old 05-31-2007, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
The Titans had a vastly superior rushing attack. Warrick Dunn had a revival under the ZBS, however this was prior to that. He only had 900 yards on 4.0 YPC. TJ Duckett is nothing special. Travis Henry nearly outdid them both, by himself.

Atlanta's top three wide receivers were: Brian Finneran, Shawn Jefferson, Trevor Gaylor. 'Nuff Said.

Atlanta's offensive line was;

LT - Bob Whitfield
LG - Travis Claridge
OC - Todd McClure
RG - Roberto Garza
RT - Todd Weiner

Solid, but not great by any stretch of the imagination.

Yet, Michael Vick had near 3,000 yards, thirteen yards per completion, 2:1 TD/INT ratio, passing. He also added 777 yards and eight touchdowns rushing. He willed his team to most of its wins. His OT run against the Vikings is still an all time great play.
Keep in mind Henry was awful for the Titans until Vince began starting. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now but his yards per carry went up by like 3. I'd say the receivers and offensive lines were about equal but the defense was superior for the Falcons. The Titans had the WORST defense in the league last year and somehow ended up 8-8. Was Vick great that year? Yes. Did he have more than triple the time to learn the playbook than Vince did? Yes.
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Old 05-31-2007, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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Ewing, I dont think that anyone here is trying to refute the fact that Vince Young obviously played a key role in leading the Titans to an 8-8 record, and nearly getting a team into the playoffs that surely didnt deserve to be there. I personally just do not have enough faith to rank him in the top 10 or 15 after his rookie season, based solely on the fact that he carried his team to a few victories, since he definately didnt have the stats to show he's a top 10-15 QB. I want to see him get a full season under his belt, and a second season in the NFL, because like I said before, he needs some time to learn the mental aspect of the game. He certainly has the physical tools, but I need to see more.
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Old 05-31-2007, 05:52 PM    (permalink
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Eli Manning SUCKS! He is bottom 10 and you will see this year with the loss of Tiki.
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Old 05-31-2007, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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True, But none of them have had continuity. It's a "What have you done for me lately" type ranking. Ben had 2 great seasons, Phillip/Losman each had 1, there's no way that it's fair to judge it. Ben's Rookie and Sophmore season he outplayed both Rivers and Losmans "1 good season". I think Ben will prove to people he's better than they act, but frankly, I don't think he'll get the credit he'll deserve then either. If Ben throws 3800 yards, 30 passign attempts a game, with a QB rating of over 100, and a Completion % over 70, People will say it's because his supporting cast. He's just not going to get a fair shake in these rankings, and that bugs the hell out of me.
You're right, it definately is a "what have you done for me lately" type ranking. If I took into account a player's entire body of work, Brett Favre would have been #1. The point I want to make is that I believe Big Ben has loads of talent, and I dont put all the success he has had on the talent around him, but I just feel that it would be unfair to put him above Rivers and Losman based on how he played two or three years ago. I think Roethlisberger WILL bounce back from last season, and obviously the appendectomy and concussion played a factor in how poorly he played, but it's difficult for me to give him the benefit of the doubt and rank him above Losman and Rivers, who both played very well last season.
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Old 05-31-2007, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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brilliant argument. he sucks? WOW! you should like, be on espn and stuff.
It would be an upgrade over Merril Hoge.
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Old 05-31-2007, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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they could cut off mel kiper's hair, stand it up with some gel and just point a camera at it, and it would often be an upgrade over hoge.
My point exactly. As dumb as High Roller's comment was he could still do a better job on the ESPN NFL shows than the current group of idiots. A dog barking at the camera for thirty minutes would be better than those morons.
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Old 05-31-2007, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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i strongly disagree that "HE SUCKS!!!!!!omg11111oneone" is really more intelligent than any more than about 1% of what's said on sportscenter.
Not Sportscenter, I'm talking about NFL Live and NFL Countdown or whatever they are calling it. Mike Ditka, Michael Irvin, Merril Hoge, and Steven Young have not said one intelligent thing the past few years on those shows. Berman is nothing more than a catchphrase spewing jackass and Jackson says something smart once in a blue moon. GRF, Achilles/TNewFan, High Roller, and EA, as stupid as they are, would be an upgrade over the usual gang of idiots.
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Old 05-31-2007, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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Bens first season his outstanding supporting cast was : Duce Staley, Oliver Ross, Jerame Tuman, Keydrick Vincent. Why isn't it fair to say that Rivers rode LT and Gates? Thats what everyone's makign it out to be.
You left off Hines Ward, Antwaan Randle El, Plaxico Burress, and Jerome Bettis from Ben's 2004 roster...unless we're talking about something else here?

It's not fair to say Rivers rode LT and Gates because those were his best receivers. Do you fault Peyton Manning for throwing to Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne?

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As for Rivers had 1 Crack at it and he had "Flying Colors" On a Career year for LT. 1 Season, he still lost his first game in the playoffs and couldn't lead his team further. Now, How is it that Phillip has the best TE and RB in the game and is a top 10 QB because of 1 "Good/Solid" Season, Ben has 2 and a Near death experience, Emergency appendectomy, Concussion and what not, and Ben fans should be greatful you have him in the top 15. Ben took a serious fall(Though the whole team did I mean hell, Hines Ward adn Ced Wilson, our only 2 Vets at WR spent IR Time.. so did Porter, Ben, Clark, Polamalu)
Rivers had a great, pro bowl, first season as a starter, and yes he did play well also in LT's Career year, those two are a product of each other, not one the result of the other. Ben had great teams too, so its not like Rivers was the only one, and Ben lost his first playoff game too, if I rememeber correctly. Good/Solid is an understatement. It wasn't spectacular, but it was a Pro-Bowl year in a tough AFC....that's not just solid. As far as the injuries those are irrelevant excsuses. Near-death, yes. But he didn't die, and he injured his jaw. It healed. Just like he healed from his appendectomy, he was cleared to play, there are no excuses.

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Ben had 2 games this season where his 4 WR's were, Nate Washington, Santonio Holmes, Sean Morey and Walter Young. I just see that Rivers had 1 good season.
Two games? wow, talk about rough luck. Rivers had plenty of games where his best WR was Malcom Floyd, aside from LT and Gates yes, but its not like he's swimming in receiving talent.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
Can I ask anyone a question and get an unbiased answer?
I'm giving you an unbiased answer. You don't think your being biased yourself?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
If Ben was such a "Game Manager" and Rode His skilled team/Defense to the superbowl, Wouldn't Rivers be in the same boat? I mean, he has the best 3-4 DL in the game, The best Passrusher in the league, 2 solid MLB's, Shaun Phillips isn't anything to sneeze at either. Add that to the best TE and RB in the league. How did Rivers honestly accomplish anything more than Ben has... In his first two seasons. Ben was sacked 46 times, Phillip 27. Obviously Phillips OL was better.
No doubt Rivers had great talent around him. He's a part of that though. Watch the Cincinnati game, he's the reason for that comeback. Same with the end of the Seattle game, the @ Denver game, etc....Those are, for the most part, all him, not LT or Gates, or the defense.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
I could throw this out. He does have a better winning % when throwing over 30 Passes. But he hasn't done it a lot. 9/16 games last season Rivers had thrown under 30 times, Thats always a negative under Ben, Rivers, in that situation is just a glorified game manager who is just lucky enough to have the best RB/TE and Defense in the NFL.
I wasn't really sure what this was referring too? So I'll just concede it I guess, if its something I'm supposed to concede. I don't know when SD aquired the best defense in the NFL though...

Edit: Think I just got it after reading it again, Rivers is not just a game manager. Game managers have no real effect on how the game turns out. Rivers led some of the biggest comebacks in the NFL this year as a QB, that being a game-changer. The amount of times he throws really has no bearing on what he did when he threw it.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
If you go by QB Rating.. Ben's first two seasons were both "Better" than Rivers Single season. Rivers had a 92.1%, Ben had a 98.1 and a 98.6% his first two seasons respectively.
Which is why you dont go by QB rating, it proves nothing.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
True, But none of them have had continuity. It's a "What have you done for me lately" type ranking. Ben had 2 great seasons, Phillip/Losman each had 1, there's no way that it's fair to judge it. Ben's Rookie and Sophmore season he outplayed both Rivers and Losmans "1 good season". I think Ben will prove to people he's better than they act, but frankly, I don't think he'll get the credit he'll deserve then either. If Ben throws 3800 yards, 30 passign attempts a game, with a QB rating of over 100, and a Completion % over 70, People will say it's because his supporting cast. He's just not going to get a fair shake in these rankings, and that bugs the hell out of me.

He's getting a fair shake, and I don't think you can say his two good seasons outplayed their seasons. It's supposed to be a what have you done lately thing, its a what have you done lately league.

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Old 06-01-2007, 12:06 AM    (permalink
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Honest, I think Phillip Rivers is the face of the Chargers AND the NFL in 5 years.

I think the guys going to be an amazing QB. Loved him at NC State.
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