New England Patriots Discussion - Page 386

Don Vito · 10-21-2012, 07:11 PM

Thank. God.

BradysKnee · 10-21-2012, 07:15 PM

Couldn't say it better myself.

The offense though disappointed me more than the defense. Mostly for playcalling reasons. We light it up a drive and look unstoppable and then we suddenly do something different and ineffective. Don't get it.

descendency · 10-21-2012, 07:58 PM

Our defensive backs are all on their rookie contracts. That's the biggest issue. Zero veteran leadership in the secondary. More draft picks won't make it better. We need Rodney Harrison in FA, again.

The LBs suck at coverage. Not one of them has a damn clue in coverage. Spikes is a good coverage guy, but he can't run with anyone. Hightower has the same issue. Mayo just hasn't grasped how to cover ****.

Mayo is the most frustrating of the three. He could have picked off that TD pass late to win the game. All he had to do was have a small amount of confidence in his DL and jump the route that he slid over to cover. He just didn't even try to stop that pass. Totally zone unaware.

The interior DL gets zero push in the passing game. Love and Wilfork (though, mostly Love) can't rush the passer, at all. Cunningham is decent 1-1 and so is Ninkovich. Obviously, Chandler Jones is beastly.

Razor · 10-21-2012, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by descendency

Our defensive backs are all on their rookie contracts. That's the biggest issue. Zero veteran leadership in the secondary. More draft picks won't make it better. We need Rodney Harrison in FA, again.

Gregory isn't on his rookie deal. However, we do need leadership back there. But even more, we need athleticism and instincts. I don't care about the leadership, that'll come naturally..

Quote:

Originally Posted by descendency

The LBs suck at coverage. Not one of them has a damn clue in coverage. Spikes is a good coverage guy, but he can't run with anyone. Hightower has the same issue. Mayo just hasn't grasped how to cover ****.

Mayo is the most frustrating of the three. He could have picked off that TD pass late to win the game. All he had to do was have a small amount of confidence in his DL and jump the route that he slid over to cover. He just didn't even try to stop that pass. Totally zone unaware.

I strongly disagree about this. They're all pretty good an coverage, and Mayo is actually the best one IMO. He's just so disciplined and never plays out of the scheme. He doesn't react to his instincts, but to what the scheme dictates. It's frustrating to watch, but it's better than having someone out there freelancing and blowing coverages *cough*Meriwhether*cough*

Shane P. Hallam · 10-22-2012, 12:44 PM

Testing for errors

Don Vito · 10-22-2012, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shane P. Hallam

Testing for errors

Defensive backs. Don't stop until you fix it.

Jvig43 · 10-22-2012, 12:48 PM

4th quarter offense while youre at it too please.

Nalej · 10-22-2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shane P. Hallam

Testing for errors

You're an error.

descendency · 10-22-2012, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

I strongly disagree about this. They're all pretty good an coverage, and Mayo is actually the best one IMO. He's just so disciplined and never plays out of the scheme. He doesn't react to his instincts, but to what the scheme dictates. It's frustrating to watch, but it's better than having someone out there freelancing and blowing coverages *cough*Meriwhether*cough*

They're all technically sound, but Spikes and Hightower can't turn and run with anyone.

Mayo does what he should, except make the plays on the ball. His instincts are very over-rated. He's a guy that executes what the coaches want, but he also misses out on a lot of plays.

The Jets TD that Sanchez threw between Mayo and a trailing DB on an in-breaking route should have been picked by Mayo. It was like 5 seconds after the ball was snapped and Sanchez had clearly gone to his next progression. There was no one in Mayo's zone, so when he slid to his right (Sanchez's left), it should have gone off in his head that the ball needs to come out.

Mayo does this regularly. It's frustrating, because it's one of the reasons why he just isn't a play maker. He's a disciplined guy and does a lot of good things (makes tackles, doesn't blow coverages), but he just isn't that impact player. If Spikes had his athleticism, he'd be the best LB in the NFL (or at least top 3).

Razor · 10-23-2012, 05:24 AM

It's easy for us fans demanding an impact player, but I don't want that. Neither does BB I think. Of course we all want players to make big plays, but what I want and what I think BB wants is players that play within the scheme. If all players do their jobs the scheme should do the rest. At least in theory. We all know this isn't true since QBs alter the play at the LOS, but I digress. What I'm trying to say is that I like having a disciplined player like Mayo. It gives me confidence that Ray Rice doesn't take the ball for 83 yards in the first play of the game or that a screen doesn't turn into a huge play. I love our linebackers right now. The upside of the group is tremendous. It allows us to put our safeties back deep and (try to) cover. Our front seven is vastly underrated because of our porous secondary.

EDIT: When we speak of our linebackers we can't forget Rob Ninkovich. I think he's developed into a very solid player for us.

Jvig43 · 10-23-2012, 06:15 AM

Thats all well and good but its time to realize that isn't working. We need play makers.

Razor · 10-23-2012, 06:17 AM

We've got playmakers in the front seven. That's my point. We just don't have the coverage to utilize those players properly.

Babylon · 10-23-2012, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jvig43

Thats all well and good but its time to realize that isn't working. We need play makers.

Still can't get over the decision to not go after Clay Matthews.

Playing a certain scheme worked when you had guys like Teddy and Vrabel there but they're gone and not walking through that door any time soon.

AntoinCD · 10-23-2012, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babylon

Still can't get over the decision to not go after Clay Matthews.

Playing a certain scheme worked when you had guys like Teddy and Vrabel there but they're gone and not walking through that door any time soon.

This is all still revisionist history though and can be used for Brooks Reed, Conor Barwin etc

These guys where all players who could have made a difference to the Pats at the time, however let's not all say they were these sure fire, can't miss prospects since they all went within the 25-40 range in the draft.

Also remember that the Pats got killed for passing on Dez Bryant, but that one turned out ok.

Added to that, the issue with the Pats isn't in the front 7 or on offense, it's the secondary. But they have used picks on the secondary. Clay Matthews doesn't make this defense much better than it is because the guys on the back end can't cover.

The issue, IMO, isn't about more talent or more playmakers. McCourty was a great playmaker in his rookie year. Chung has made big plays etc. This is all on the scheme. I don't think Revis, Earl Thomas, Ed Reed and Cromartie would look as good as they do if in the Pats scheme. It asks the DBs to do too much. The secondary is a reactive place to play. When you spend more time thinking of what you shuld be doing instead of just doing it then you get beat. To me right now it's that simple. Let the guys they have go out and play straight up man coverage with a deep safety and they can be successful. However that's simply not Belichick's MO. Right now he is trying to be too clever and innovative and is allowing the back end to get gashed on a weekly basis

FlyingElvis · 10-23-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phils Simms - in game commentary

They're playing zone, so everybody is open.

I lol'd.

Overall, this is a poorly managed team from top to bottom. A timeout in the first ******* quarter by the PUNT TEAM at midfield?? Even a highschooler should know that situation makes a 5 yard delay penalty completely irrelevant. This from a coach who has always preached situational football. There are too many mental mistakes not only on the field but from the coaches. This is very disheartening, as it looks like a sign of poor preparation.

Dear Bill Belichick,

DO YOUR JOB.

That is all.

cmarq83 · 10-23-2012, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

This is all still revisionist history though and can be used for Brooks Reed, Conor Barwin etc

These guys where all players who could have made a difference to the Pats at the time, however let's not all say they were these sure fire, can't miss prospects since they all went within the 25-40 range in the draft.

Also remember that the Pats got killed for passing on Dez Bryant, but that one turned out ok.

Added to that, the issue with the Pats isn't in the front 7 or on offense, it's the secondary. But they have used picks on the secondary. Clay Matthews doesn't make this defense much better than it is because the guys on the back end can't cover.

The issue, IMO, isn't about more talent or more playmakers. McCourty was a great playmaker in his rookie year. Chung has made big plays etc. This is all on the scheme. I don't think Revis, Earl Thomas, Ed Reed and Cromartie would look as good as they do if in the Pats scheme. It asks the DBs to do too much. The secondary is a reactive place to play. When you spend more time thinking of what you shuld be doing instead of just doing it then you get beat. To me right now it's that simple. Let the guys they have go out and play straight up man coverage with a deep safety and they can be successful. However that's simply not Belichick's MO. Right now he is trying to be too clever and innovative and is allowing the back end to get gashed on a weekly basis

I just think that is a lazy argument. We've tried to do conventional man coverage with a deep safety. The corners played poorly so we blamed the safeties. Now, we're playing loose zone and we're blaming the scheme, before when the zone didn't work we blamed the pass rush. The corners aren't good enough. It's tough to admit it after so much investment in that position, but at this point it's basically fact. McCourty, Arrington, and Moore aren't quality man corners, and the jury is still out on Dennard and Dowling. Plenty of teams run cover 2 and mixed zone looks effectively, but it's especially challenging for us because our linebackers aren't athletic enough to take deep enough drops to let our safeties commit to breaking on the outside receivers.

We can run zone better if we get more athletic linebackers and pressure in the middle of the d-line. We can run man better if we get man corners and actually have the stones to blitz our linebackers, but as of right now we don't have the personnel to do either. So we're stuck with mixed looks in a conventional base or nickel package with a mediocre pass rush, slow linebackers being beaten over the top, corners who have no instincts or aggressiveness, and safeties that have too much responsibility and are always a step late.

AntoinCD · 10-23-2012, 04:17 PM

Disagree. I think it's the easy option to blame the players. It's not simply a coincidence that anyone the Pats draft in the secondary have't been good players.

The Pats LBs are big by design. Their size is a massive part of the scheme. You can't blame Hightower because he's 270lbs. BB basically wants to use his front 7 to stop the run. How often do you see Chung or Gregory or Wilson etc make the run stuff up the middle? Virtually never. The job of the safeties is to play zones waiting for the pass. Not often do they play a simple cover 2 shell. The DBs play so many different types of defense. Cover 1, 2, 3, robber, man etc. They don't have a true FS. Patrick Chung playing 30 yards of the line of scrimmage is a fault in the scheme, it is not Chung's fault. Yet often times he rotates deep while Gregory or Wilson come up to an intermediate zone.

The Pats don't have the defensive talent to line up in one defense and say to the offense "this is what we got, what have you got?" but in saying that very few teams do. However BB has gone too far to counteract this. Every DB has so many responsibilities for so many different possible outcomes. It is what BB such a respected coach so many years ago but he has possibly gone too far. Some times you just have to say go out and play and see what we have.

As for the question scheme or players, does anyone really think Sterling Moore or Kyle Arrington are better players than Ras-I Dowling? Because they aren't but Dowling is simply not good in zone

cmarq83 · 10-23-2012, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

Disagree. I think it's the easy option to blame the players. It's not simply a coincidence that anyone the Pats draft in the secondary have't been good players.

The Pats LBs are big by design. Their size is a massive part of the scheme. You can't blame Hightower because he's 270lbs. BB basically wants to use his front 7 to stop the run. How often do you see Chung or Gregory or Wilson etc make the run stuff up the middle? Virtually never. The job of the safeties is to play zones waiting for the pass. Not often do they play a simple cover 2 shell. The DBs play so many different types of defense. Cover 1, 2, 3, robber, man etc. They don't have a true FS. Patrick Chung playing 30 yards of the line of scrimmage is a fault in the scheme, it is not Chung's fault. Yet often times he rotates deep while Gregory or Wilson come up to an intermediate zone.

The Pats don't have the defensive talent to line up in one defense and say to the offense "this is what we got, what have you got?" but in saying that very few teams do. However BB has gone too far to counteract this. Every DB has so many responsibilities for so many different possible outcomes. It is what BB such a respected coach so many years ago but he has possibly gone too far. Some times you just have to say go out and play and see what we have.

As for the question scheme or players, does anyone really think Sterling Moore or Kyle Arrington are better players than Ras-I Dowling? Because they aren't but Dowling is simply not good in zone

It's not like he hasn't tried the man coverage route though. They ran a ton of man against Seattle with extremely mixed results. They tried manning McCourty and Dowling up against Marshall and V-Jax in the opening weeks last year with poor results. They mix man and zone in every game. It's not like playing bump and run is some magic bullet that is going to solve the issues that our guys fundamentally have covering people. Last week we were more zone exclusive because I don't think BB believed Hill, Kerley, Keller, and Sanchez could be disciplined enough to pick apart a zone defense. He was wrong and the Patriots looked awful, but they've looked awful plenty before in man looks.

I want to see what Dowling and Dennard can do playing bump and run on the outside because honestly it can't get worse than what we have, but it's not like either of those guys were amazing man prospects coming out. Dowling was lauded for his press skills and physicality off the line, but a good deal of scouts thought his best fit would be in a Tampa-2 scheme, and Dennard is a limited athlete.

McCourty was taken as a zone CB as was Wheatley. Butler was just awful. Arrington is very physical and does a good deal of bumping off the line, but he's not a good enough athlete to keep up with guys. These guys aren't man corners, and I have a hard time believing that handing guys a more difficult task when they're struggling is a good idea.

They've been handed a very difficult set of cards, I won't disagree with that, but I've just seen too many attempts to absolve them of any blame. I mean for god's sake 3 weeks ago we were talking about how the coaching staff is teaching them the wrong technique. Now it's the system, what is next week going to be? They're wearing the wrong type of cleats.

This defense has been assembled all wrong. They have 4 nice pieces, but the rest of it is an absolute disaster. They need to get guys who can play man, sub-linebackers who can actually move, and a DT who can actually get after the QB. Until those things happen I think it's going to be more of the same no matter what scheme, technique, safeties, or whatever we have.

AntoinCD · 10-24-2012, 06:45 AM

Yeah don't get me wrong, I am not trying to absolve all blame from the players. At times there have been some horrible plays. The long TD pass at the end of the Seattle game was a very bad read from Tavon Wilson. Likewise Kyle Arrington has been flat out beaten at times. However I don't think this secondary is horrendously untalented. In fact, talent wise I would likely rank them average to above average.

The big issue I see is that Belichick has developed an offense which utilises players to play to their strengths and diminish their weaknesses. He has been fluid in his approach and it has worked. However defensively it still seems as though he is fitting round pegs into square holes

Vaylor · 10-24-2012, 05:40 PM

Quote:

#filmstudy #nextlevel Patriots lead league with 18 drops. Had 18 drops all of last regular season.

https://twitter.com/TDESPN/status/261234745906712579

Well that is interesting.

Jvig43 · 10-24-2012, 05:43 PM

Drop what? Dropped passes I'm assuming? Either way I don't think thats our biggest issue or what the problem is with the offense.

Nalej · 10-24-2012, 07:18 PM

No, but it's still a ****** problem to have.

descendency · 10-24-2012, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jvig43

Drop what? Dropped passes I'm assuming? Either way I don't think thats our biggest issue or what the problem is with the offense.

18 drops, all on third down in the 4th quarter.

edit: Does anyone have access to numbers that break down who plays on passing downs in those subpackages, specifically who plays the two interior DL spots?

edit2: Similar to Matt's topic in the NFL general, I was thinking "What player would the Patriots amnesty?" if each team was given one opportunity. The reality is that this team is so young (basically all on rookie contracts) or good (see Brady, Mankins, Wilfork, Gostkowski) that I'm having a legitimately hard time justifying getting rid of someone purely to save money.

Do we have a bad contract (dead money) we are still paying off? The closest thing I could come up with is Fanene (if that isn't resolved in our favor) or Ochocinco, but according to jetscap.com (the Patriots part), that's only 1.5 million in dead cap...

Kind of amazing, to me.

Jvig43 · 10-25-2012, 10:01 AM

I still think the play calling has been much more of a hinderence than anything else on offense. Our offense has proven itself to be super effective in the passing and running game, so why are we getting cute with these trick plays and back shoulder throws when we Don't need to be? Also Lloyd just does not get separation, and thats whats most concerning about our deep game. He was brought in for that sole purpose, and he just does not get the separation needed to be the big play guy.

cmarq83 · 10-25-2012, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Wes Welker
2012: 74 targets, 688 yards, 9.30 yards per target
2011: 172 targets, 1569 yards, 9.12 yards per target

Rob Gronkowski
2012: 51 targets, 434 yards, 8.51 yards per target
2011: 124 targets, 1327 yards, 10.70 yards per target

Aaron Hernandez
2012: 24 targets, 143 yards, 5.96 yards per target
2011: 113 targets, 910 yards, 8.05 yards per target

Brandon Lloyd
2012: 65 targets, 407 yards, 6.26 yards per target

There is a lot wrong with this picture. I think the Gronk and Hernandez decline are attributable to their respective injuries, and I hope that their numbers rebound after the bye. However, Lloyd's are borderline pitiful considering he primarily runs routes >10 yards down the field. He's simply not a productive player for us right now. Even Deion Branch was more productive on a per target basis last year.

Quote:

Deion Branch
2011: 90 targets. 702 yards, 7.80 yards per target

We need to figure out what we're doing with Lloyd within the offense soon, because it's reaching the point where it's beginning to hamper us on 3rd down when we go to him and get incompletions.