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Old 12-09-2013, 10:36 AM    (permalink
cmarq83
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That hit would have torn anyone's ACL. With that being said Ward hit Gronk the way he did because he was Gronk. A lot of DB's have taken Gronk down in a lot of unconventional ways which have led to some very hard landings. The guy is frankly too good, which is ultimately shorten his career way more than it should.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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Sucks for Gronk to get a blown out knee when he had to spend so much time rehabbing already. I can't blame Ward, tbh. We've heard the same sentiment from plenty of DBs all year: knee injuries will be on the rise b/c you can't be anywhere high for fear of penalties and fines.

This team might be a contender, simply b/c there's no clear stud team in all phases right now. However, there's no way you win a Super Bowl without putting points on the board in the first half of the game.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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I just don't see how were going to manage to beat Denver. IN Denver at that.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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I just don't see how were going to manage to beat Denver. IN Denver at that.
I know, but could you imagine how utterly incredible that would be? There are certain things that rival winning a championship in terms of satisfaction. That would be one of them, just like the Bruins sweeping the Penguins last year.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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I know, but could you imagine how utterly incredible that would be? There are certain things that rival winning a championship in terms of satisfaction. That would be one of them, just like the Bruins sweeping the Penguins last year.
Ok thats fair, but Manning is going to want revenge and wont take the foot off the pedal, and Fox in all likely hood wont stop abusing our offensive line with their front seven like Del Rio did. I totally agree it would be amazing to knock them off alone, but it still is so unlikely to happen. So unlikely, especially with Gronk dead.

Honestly, this off season was about as bad as we had anticipated. Every fear pretty much came to fruition. Danny being hurt/not as effective as Welker, Rookie WRs not looking able to make as significant contributions as we needed, Gronk can't stay healthy, no depth at DT, can Talib stay healthy? And I love the fight this team has, I don't think Ive seen this in my life time as a Pats fan. They just refuse to quit. Its just a shame we have essentially wasted a year because of stupid off season decisions and refusal to make moves. We learned this in 2006, you don't strip Brady of everything and just ask him to be Jesus on the gridiron. He can take us far, but not winning a SB has to be considered a busted year with Brady at the helm.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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Also Gronk Suffered a concussion as well. Good god.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Also Gronk Suffered a concussion as well. Good god.
Well, at least we can be sure he'll be cleared of symptoms by the time he's ready to play again.
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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I thought it was amazing yesterday how after the tackle, when Gronk was in incredible pain on the ground, he was still trying to signal to the ref that it was a complete catch and that he was done before the ball came loose.
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Old 12-10-2013, 03:49 AM    (permalink
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So what do you guys think will be the plan for the offseason.

I know a lot has been made that they will go after Sanders who should sign after the offer made last year, but I have a feeling they will resign Edelman over him.

I also think at least one of Spikes and Talib will be gone, maybe even both. I think they try to under value Talib based on injuries and a dip in play but he will want paid based on his first half of the season.

I think they may go after a guy like Paul Soliai if he hits the market. Still a top notch run defender and would lessen the burden on Wilfork if he comes back.

I'd like to see them fill a few holes in FA so they can focus on BPA in the draft.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:40 AM    (permalink
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The problem is that the Pats cap situation isn't great. The Hernandez and Lloyd cap hits leave a solid amount of dead money on our cap, and the potential of Gronk missing serious time burdens us even further.

We have some guys in the heart of their 2nd contracts (Mankins, Wilfork, Mayo) who're all a bit overpaid, and some questionable mid-level deals (Arrington, Amendola). Needless to say the Pats are paying way too much relative to the talent they have on those deals.

We need to absolutely nail the draft, and get a great value or 2 in free agency.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:44 AM    (permalink
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I do suppose it adds a bit of relevance to your previous point of possibly letting Vince walk. His cap number is pretty high and if he isn't going to be the same guy then it would maybe be prudent to cut him, although mightily unpopular.

I think we need at least one guy from the draft who can step in and become a big contributor almost from day 1. Realistically the only position I think they will trust somewhere early is on the offensive line (either OC or OG).

Maybe if they do take a guy like Ebron, Amaro or ASJ they could start
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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Wendell is getting smoked regularly. Replacing him with a high pick would make a huge difference. The value tends to be there towards the end of the first round and into the second, though I haven't a clue what the class looks like for C prospects.

Vince and Gronk make a good case for the need to have some kind of cap relief for injured players.

I honestly don't care if Talib is back. He comes across as a punk, which I don't care to see. I was really irritated with the Seahawks D for the same type of crap against the Saints last week.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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Wendell is getting smoked regularly. Replacing him with a high pick would make a huge difference. The value tends to be there towards the end of the first round and into the second, though I haven't a clue what the class looks like for C prospects.

Vince and Gronk make a good case for the need to have some kind of cap relief for injured players.

I honestly don't care if Talib is back. He comes across as a punk, which I don't care to see. I was really irritated with the Seahawks D for the same type of crap against the Saints last week.
It's not Wendell, it's Connolly. Wendell hasn't played that great, either, but the guy next to him being a revolving door (to be polite) isn't helping at all. I'm fine replacing them both, but Connolly is the real issue.

Any really good defensiveback is going to be of Talib's ilk. Do you not remember Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Asante Samuel, and Rodney Harrison?
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:56 AM    (permalink
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It's not Wendell, it's Connolly. Wendell hasn't played that great, either, but the guy next to him being a revolving door (to be polite) isn't helping at all. I'm fine replacing them both, but Connolly is the real issue.

Any really good defensiveback is going to be of Talib's ilk. Do you not remember Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Asante Samuel, and Rodney Harrison?
I'd disagree on the Wendell vs. Connolly debate. I can cite 5 plays in the past 4 games that have resulted in 2 sacks and 3 negative runs basically entirely on Wendell either being fought across his face on a stretch play, or whiffing on a slide protection in pass blocking. The dude has been horrendous.

In terms of Talib, we simply cannot get rid of him because it bumps everyone up into a role they're unsuited for. Yes, Talib plays very inconsistently, but for stretches he's played like a #1 corner. Nobody else on this team has that skill set. I love Dennard, and he's a very good #2, but he's not talented enough to be Talib because he can't run. The same thing goes with Ryan, and I don't even want to get into the horrors of Kyle Arrington potentially playing more on the outside. Considering the needs we have, we really can't afford to drop a draft pick on a corner with #1 type tools, not have we ever really had success doing that either.

We need to suck it up and give Talib a Cromartie type contract. Yeah, it's not ideal, but Ty Law and Mike Haynes aren't walking through that door.
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Old 12-12-2013, 06:18 AM    (permalink
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Agree on Talib, however we have to look at Belichick's previous on this. He didn't pay Samuel and it's no secret that he likes to build his defense through the middle rather than on the boundaries.

I really would not be surprised to see him let Talib walk, resign Spikes and keep Vince. In the same way Belichick has the potential to do something that nobody saw coming. So I wouldn't be surprised by what happens.

There are some relatively cheap potential FAs available this year. Scott Chandler fits the mold of a guy who has produced against the Pats and fills a need.

I do think they need to cut some people in the offseason or just let them walk. I love Spikes. He is a tone setter for the defense and there isn't a better run defender in the league, but he is almost redundant in NE. I would rather go with Mayo, Hightower and Collins at LB if it meant we could resign Talib, Edelman and a few other guys who can help.

I'm not too sure of how the cap works, but if they resign guys like McCourty this year what will that do to the cap? Because you gotta think that is a top priority
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:41 AM    (permalink
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In the forum mock, I decided to let Edelman, Spikes, and Talib go, while re-signing Blount and Wendell. I would like to see any of the three departing players back, but I just don't think any of them will sign a contract in the range I'd be willing to offer. I also think those guys may block some opportunities for our young talent.

I'm okay with Amendola, Dobson, Thompkins, and Boyce at wide receiver, Mayo, Hightower, Collins, and Fletcher at linebacker, and Ryan, Dennard, and Arrington at cornerback if no one else comes along, whether through free agency or the draft. I would have let Wendell leave, but I'm not sure there are very many good centers in the draft this year. If anyone was brought in, that would give the team more flexibility in deciding when they were ready. I certainly wouldn't commit to Wendell for more than a modest one-or-two-year deal, though.
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Old 12-12-2013, 08:04 AM    (permalink
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In the forum mock, I decided to let Edelman, Spikes, and Talib go, while re-signing Blount and Wendell. I would like to see any of the three departing players back, but I just don't think any of them will sign a contract in the range I'd be willing to offer. I also think those guys may block some opportunities for our young talent.

I'm okay with Amendola, Dobson, Thompkins, and Boyce at wide receiver, Mayo, Hightower, Collins, and Fletcher at linebacker, and Ryan, Dennard, and Arrington at cornerback if no one else comes along, whether through free agency or the draft. I would have let Wendell leave, but I'm not sure there are very many good centers in the draft this year. If anyone was brought in, that would give the team more flexibility in deciding when they were ready. I certainly wouldn't commit to Wendell for more than a modest one-or-two-year deal, though.
I think Connolly's ability to play OC gives them some flexibility with Wendell. Sure if it's on a low deal I would take him back, but I am more than comfortable with Solder, Mankins, Connolly, Cannon and Solder as the starting 5. Svitek has also shown he can be a valuable backup. The value at OT and OG is a lot better than OC in the draft.

I agree that having the 3 CBs is ok, but you lack a guy who can man up on an opposing teams #1 consistently. Talib didn't play well against Cleveland but has shut down some top quality WRs this year. Plus, Dennard has injury concerns. Having a starting 3 of Ryan, Arrington and Cole doesn't instil me with confidence at all.
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:16 AM    (permalink
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I am not ok with either that LB corre or the wr one. Both of those areas, hypothetically of course, would be major weak spots on this team. Hightower has looked awful in every phase of the game, and while Spikes can't cover any better, its night and day in terms of run defense. Collins has looked like he has a number of skills, but is still so raw that I wouldn't feel comfortable rolling him out as a starter after only one season. As for WR, sure Dob has come on a bit, and so has Thompkins but again do either of them ideally fill the need for a deep threat? Because outside of a handful of plays I'd say no. Also resigning blount? No thank you. I'm perfectly comfortable with ridley vereen and bolden.
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:26 AM    (permalink
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I would be willing to give Dobson a shot at the deep threat role. He has some nice moves at the line of scrimmage and runs some really good double moves. He's never going to be a Randy Moss who just blows by people but realistically there just aren't that many of those types.

KT is frustrating. He runs some sexy routes and creates great separation but his hands are made of stone. If he could get his hands sorted he could play the Deion Branch/Jabar Gaffney role pretty well. In fact he could basically be everything the team thought they were getting with Ocho, big if on the hands though because it's a natural skill. You generally have it or you don't.

Realistically I don't think WR is a huge need but can there be upgrades? Sure.
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:28 AM    (permalink
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On another note, I don't see why we need to carry 4 RBs. I would be happy with 3 plus a FB.

If Ridley keeps hold of the ball he is the top ball carrier and Vereen should be on the field for approximately 70% of snaps regardless of who else is there, he is that big a matchup advantage.

Bolden can be the guy to spell either of those roles.
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:35 AM    (permalink
Jvig43
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
I would be willing to give Dobson a shot at the deep threat role. He has some nice moves at the line of scrimmage and runs some really good double moves. He's never going to be a Randy Moss who just blows by people but realistically there just aren't that many of those types.

KT is frustrating. He runs some sexy routes and creates great separation but his hands are made of stone. If he could get his hands sorted he could play the Deion Branch/Jabar Gaffney role pretty well. In fact he could basically be everything the team thought they were getting with Ocho, big if on the hands though because it's a natural skill. You generally have it or you don't.

Realistically I don't think WR is a huge need but can there be upgrades? Sure.
A few weeks ago we all were pulling at our hair over the amount of drops our wrs were having to end drives or big plays. Now a few weeks of mediocre offense (and mediocre in every sense of the word) and were saying it isn't a glaring need? I'd say its about right on par with any of the top 3 (Oline, DT, WR) needs. Just because we got some good production from our offense since Gronk came back doesn't mean anything has changed. We need to give Brady help, now. Its pathetic that were ok with these weapons right now, it isn't going to cut and thus far its proven so. We could barely move score against the browns, and almost lost to the team getting the #1 pick in the draft. Brady needs weapons, and Gronk isn't reliable to stay healthy season in and out. I'm tired of having to deal with multiple 2006 years of offensive output.

I'm glad were same page about running backs. Blount doesn't, nor should he be resigned.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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A few weeks ago we all were pulling at our hair over the amount of drops our wrs were having to end drives or big plays. Now a few weeks of mediocre offense (and mediocre in every sense of the word) and were saying it isn't a glaring need? I'd say its about right on par with any of the top 3 (Oline, DT, WR) needs. Just because we got some good production from our offense since Gronk came back doesn't mean anything has changed. We need to give Brady help, now. Its pathetic that were ok with these weapons right now, it isn't going to cut and thus far its proven so. We could barely move score against the browns, and almost lost to the team getting the #1 pick in the draft. Brady needs weapons, and Gronk isn't reliable to stay healthy season in and out. I'm tired of having to deal with multiple 2006 years of offensive output.

I'm glad were same page about running backs. Blount doesn't, nor should he be resigned.
I think it's putting into perspective of our needs as a whole. Am I happy with what we have right now? No, absolutely not. But realistically when it comes to the draft we will not be in a position to get a stud WR and our abilities in FA are kind of limited due to dead cap.

I think shoring up the right side of the interior of the line improves the running game and hopefully having Vereen for 16 games improves what we can do.

For us to get a WR who can upgrade what we have quickly it will be a premium pick in the draft or a mid to high level FA. When you consider the possibility of needing a CB, at least one DT and offensive line help, not to mention at least another TE I see it as picking our battles.

I would rather see a guy like Ebron, Amaro or ASJ over a WR early in the draft.

EDIT: I don't think there is a quick fix unfortunately which really sucks given it is coming to the end of Brady's career. The major issue was the Hernandez deal. If none of that happened then we would have so much more flexibility. It ruined the 2 TE offense which placed more pressure on the WRs. But it happened and I don't think it is anything anyone could have forseen, regardless of whatever character concerns he had. Nobody thought he was a stone cold murderer.

If Hernandez was still there we have more cap room allowing us to definitely resign Talib and maybe Spikes plus be adventourous in FA.

A trade is always a possiblity when it comes to WRs. You never know what can happen. One outside possibility could be someone like Brandon Marshall. The Bears have their future #1 WR in Jeffrey and they could use a lot of help on defense. Why not float a possible 2nd rounder for him?
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Old 12-12-2013, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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I can't say it enough, we should have bit the bullet and traded for Gordon. 2nd rounder, young, and an inexpensive rookie contract to boot. Off field concerns sure, but take the risk over another god damn ****** DB we reach way too high on.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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I can't say it enough, we should have bit the bullet and traded for Gordon. 2nd rounder, young, and an inexpensive rookie contract to boot. Off field concerns sure, but take the risk over another god damn ****** DB we reach way too high on.
Definitely. It would be a low 2nd too. I have a hard time believing that was a realistic offer though. Some team would have given that up. I think they would have taken a second from a team like Jax but would look for a first from a good team. I would still be tempted giving a first for him though
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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We ended up trading the #29 overall pick and our third-round selection to Buffalo for the #39 overall pick and their third-and-fifth-round selections.

In an unrelated move, Stevan Ridley was traded to Cleveland for Pittsburgh's third-round pick, which should be about #76 overall. That leaves us with this over the first two days:

2. (from Buffalo)

2.

3. (from Buffalo)

3. (from Pittsburgh)
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