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Old 05-27-2007, 10:46 PM    (permalink
papa burgundy
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Originally Posted by remix 6 View Post
okay so why are Vikings so high? They add in Greenway..unproven. Leber is not very good..Henderson is good though.

Willis is unproven so why are 49ers so high?

Derek Smith blows..i've seen him a few times and the 49er fans have bashed him. Moore i dont know much about..Lawson will be a good player but how much has he proven?

thats why i brought Beason up..the site put in Willis and Greenway .
Looking at that list.. you could probably put any team from 5 on down in any order and you'd probably get the same reactions. None of those teams really stand out in terms of total LB cores.

As far as Moore who you don't know much about though. He is by far one of if not the most underrated linebacker in the entire NFL. He excels at rushing the passer he plays the run like Trotter in his prime and his has the strength of a 300lb DT. Not to mention..



Look at those guns.. guy is a beast. I'd go as far as saying he's a top 5 LBer in the NFC, but that's probably just the homer in me saying that.
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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But Dan's never healthy, that's the thing. And Davis is not better than Hawk, sorry. Not at least in my opinion.

You've got an injury prone LB, a rookie LB, and an inexperienced LB who while talented still needs to learn the game. That does not qualify them being the best LB core in the NFC, and I'd still take GB's over yours.
Hawk is good, but he doesn't use his hands as well and Davis who's much, much better at shedding blocks.

I'd put the two equal in run and pass support but Davis is better against blockers and through traffic, though hawk probably has been gap discipline.

As for Morgan i agree, he needs to learn to stay healthy, but he's still better than Barnett when healthy.
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
Hawk is good, but he doesn't use his hands as well and Davis who's much, much better at shedding blocks.

I'd put the two equal in run and pass support but Davis is better against blockers and through traffic, though hawk probably has been gap discipline.

As for Morgan i agree, he needs to learn to stay healthy, but he's still better than Barnett when healthy.
Hawk is a playmaker, Davis is not. Hawk is incontrovertibly better than Davis.
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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Hawk is good, but he doesn't use his hands as well and Davis who's much, much better at shedding blocks.

I'd put the two equal in run and pass support but Davis is better against blockers and through traffic, though hawk probably has been gap discipline.

As for Morgan i agree, he needs to learn to stay healthy, but he's still better than Barnett when healthy.
Barnett has been infinitely more consistent and dependable than Morgan throughout his career. Ask anybody who is the better linebacker heading into next season and it's Barnett everytime.

I don't really see your argument about Davis and Hawk. Hawk uses his hands as well as anybody to shed blocks. That's far from his weakness.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:10 PM    (permalink
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Hawk is a playmaker, Davis is not. Hawk is incontrovertibly better than Davis.
Are you kidding me?

You've just argued yourself out of this discussion. Thomas Davis is the definition of playmaker. Rich McKay himself, who's been amazing when drafting linebackers over his career as a GM said "He's the Braylon Edwards of defensive players" when referring to the draft class of 2005.

He's by far the best tackler on the Panthers team, he's also the best blitzing linebacker and is the best blitzing linebacker we've had for years. He ran stride for stride with reggie bush in coverage and only gave up one play when he was checked at the line of scrimmage on a crackback from Colston.

He's been the guy who's shut Vick down the last two years and stopped him from being the play maker he is against every one else.

Davis is not a play maker? You've never seen him play.

Hawk and Davis are almost the exact same player, the difference between the two is that hawk has about ten pounds on Davis, but Davis runs a 4.5 forty and can actually blitz. Hell, Thomas Davis has covered slot receivers in the past. His versatility allows the Panthers to stay in their base defense even when teams come out three wide.

He can cover, he can blitz, he uses his hands brilliantly to shed blockers and last year more than once for example against new orleans fought off a tackle to drop inside down the line and stop McAllister for a loss behind the line. He's got a nose for the ball and can trail. The kid is inexperienced and yes, he needs to learn to read play fakes and not to over pursue when chasing down players, but he's fast on his way to being a probowl player.

Coming out scouts were comparing him to Ray Lewis and saying he's the next great linebacker.

Hawk is known to struggle as a blitzer and can be tied up by blockers because he lacks the height most SLBs have and because he doesn't have quickness to always beat the running back to the corner.

Davis does both those things better, the only advantage Hawk has is he's better at reading a play. Which will come to Davis in time.

Davis, last year was more important to our defense than anyone not named Kris Jenkins, Julius Peppers or Ken Lucas.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:17 PM    (permalink
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Are you kidding me?

You've just argued yourself out of this discussion. Thomas Davis is the definition of playmaker. Rich McKay himself, who's been amazing when drafting linebackers over his career as a GM said "He's the Braylon Edwards of defensive players" when referring to the draft class of 2005.

He's by far the best tackler on the Panthers team, he's also the best blitzing linebacker and is the best blitzing linebacker we've had for years. He ran stride for stride with reggie bush in coverage and only gave up one play when he was checked at the line of scrimmage on a crackback from Colston.

He's been the guy who's shut Vick down the last two years and stopped him from being the play maker he is against every one else.

Davis is not a play maker? You've never seen him play.

Hawk and Davis are almost the exact same player, the difference between the two is that hawk has about ten pounds on Davis, but Davis runs a 4.5 forty and can actually blitz. Hell, Thomas Davis has covered slot receivers in the past. His versatility allows the Panthers to stay in their base defense even when teams come out three wide.

He can cover, he can blitz, he uses his hands brilliantly to shed blockers and last year more than once for example against new orleans fought off a tackle to drop inside down the line and stop McAllister for a loss behind the line. He's got a nose for the ball and can trail. The kid is inexperienced and yes, he needs to learn to read play fakes and not to over pursue when chasing down players, but he's fast on his way to being a probowl player.

Coming out scouts were comparing him to Ray Lewis and saying he's the next great linebacker.

Hawk is known to struggle as a blitzer and can be tied up by blockers because he lacks the height most SLBs have and because he doesn't have quickness to always beat the running back to the corner.

Davis does both those things better, the only advantage Hawk has is he's better at reading a play. Which will come to Davis in time.

Davis, last year was more important to our defense than anyone not named Kris Jenkins, Julius Peppers or Ken Lucas.
Ok, he was a playmaker in college, different level, different game he's in right now. His production last season as a full time starter is pretty mediocre. For being the amazing blitzer you say he is, it's surprising he got fewer sacks than the player who he is superior to in blitzing and shedding blocks. He didn't make many plays last season, which means Int.'s and sacks. He is perfectly adept at tackling, I'll give him that.

This is complete homerism if you honestly believe that Davis is better than Hawk.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:17 PM    (permalink
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Blindsite, you forget one thing, AJ Hawk is AJ Hawk. There goes your argument.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:18 PM    (permalink
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Dan Morgan in 6 years: 364 Total Tackles - 265 Solo Tackles - 7 Sacks - 5 Ints

Nick Barnett in 5years: 478 Total Tackles - 331 Solo Tackles - 8 Sacks - 7 Ints



Thomas Davis in 2 years: 126 Total Tackles - 100 Solo Tackles - 3 Sacks - 0 Ints

A.J. Hawk in 1 year.......: 119 Total Tackles - 82 Solo Tackles - 3.5 Sacks - 2 Ints


Now I know stats aren't everything, but I just want to show you how rediculous you are being.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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Ok, he was a playmaker in college, different level, different game he's in right now. His production last season as a full time starter is pretty mediocre. For being the amazing blitzer you say he is, it's surprising he got fewer sacks than the player who he is superior to in blitzing and shedding blocks. He didn't make many plays last season, which means Int.'s and sacks. He is perfectly adept at tackling, I'll give him that.

This is complete homerism if you honestly believe that Davis is better than Hawk.
You don't know much about the type for 43 Trgovac runs do you? Nor how opposing offenses attack the Panthers. You keep acting like you know my team, its clear every post you make that you don't.

He didn't make many plays? You don't know a thing, you're looking at statistics, they don't show the story, they don't even begin to tell half of it.

I'm used to people like you who know about AJ hawk what they've read from press clippings before he's drafted and you don't know squat about Davis because he didn't start his rookie year.

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Thomas Davis in 2 years: 126 Total Tackles - 100 Solo Tackles - 3 Sacks - 0 Ints

A.J. Hawk in 1 year.......: 119 Total Tackles - 82 Solo Tackles - 3.5 Sacks - 2 Ints

Now I know stats aren't everything, but I just want to show you how ridiculous you are being.
You're exactly the same, you've probably never watched a game thomas Davis played. The statistics are skewed because of the way offenses attack your team.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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You do know it would be a landslide if we made this a poll, right? I'm talking your vote vs. everyone else.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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You don't know much about the type for 43 Trgovac runs do you? Nor how opposing offenses attack the Panthers. You keep acting like you know my team, its clear every post you make that you don't.

He didn't make many plays? You don't know a thing, you're looking at statistics, they don't show the story, they don't even begin to tell half of it.

I'm used to people like you who know about AJ hawk what they've read from press clippings before he's drafted and you don't know squat about Davis because he didn't start his rookie year.
Have you seen Hawk play? If you have you would realize that he actually jumps off the screen at you as a playmaker on their defense. I watched several Panthers games this season, Thomas Davis was a solid player, but not much more.

Here is how I define playmaker: one who makes plays. What are big plays? Int's and sacks. Now since Davis didn't get many sacks and no int's what does that mean? He didn't make many plays thus is not a playmaker. I'm sure he made a lot of big tackles, but most decent players do. That's not what I'm talking about when I refer to someone as a playmaker. You can tell if someone is a playmaker or not by looking at their stats. That is one of the few places that you can use stats to actually determine something.

There really is no ground to stand on on Davis's side in this Davis vs. Hawk debate.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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Have you seen Hawk play? If you have you would realize that he actually jumps off the screen at you as a playmaker on their defense. I watched several Panthers games this season, Thomas Davis was a solid player, but not much more.

Here is how I define playmaker: one who makes plays. What are big plays? Int's and sacks. Now since Davis didn't get many sacks and no int's what does that mean? He didn't make many plays thus is not a playmaker. I'm sure he made a lot of big tackles, but most decent players do. That's not what I'm talking about when I refer to someone as a playmaker. You can tell if someone is a playmaker or not by looking at their stats. That is one of the few places that you can use stats to actually determine something.

There really is no ground to stand on on Davis's side in this Davis vs. Hawk debate.
Wow, there really is no point arguing with you. By your logic Lee Evans is better than Steve Smith.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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Wow, there really is no point arguing with you. By your logic Lee Evans is better than Steve Smith.
Steve Smith had an off year, in 2005 he was much better than Lee Evans.

What good does changing the topic to veteran vs. veteran when they have many seasons to compare when we are talking about a rookie and a second year player who was a first year LB'er. But Lee Evans is a playmaker.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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he isnt saying Lee Evans is better then Steve Smith, but if you see a LB has 6 INT and 8 sacks so to say, you can tell he is a play maker. It doesnt make a person better then another person.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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he isnt saying Lee Evans is better then Steve Smith, but if you see a LB has 6 INT and 8 sacks so to say, you can tell he is a play maker. It doesnt make a person better then another person.
Granted, but then that's not always the case, Deltha O'Neal had 10 INTs a year ago and he's pathetic. It means he was attacked, constantly.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:54 PM    (permalink
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we are talking about LB not CB here. You are right about Oneal
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Old 05-28-2007, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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Which is exactly the point. If he's crap in man coverage he's going to get thrown at more, thus his chances of taking an INT are higher, if he's in zone because he can't cover man to man, much of the same. Its the same concept. Better stats don't always mean better play. If a player is attacked more they're going to have more tackles, and ints.
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Old 05-28-2007, 12:10 AM    (permalink
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Which is exactly the point. If he's crap in man coverage he's going to get thrown at more, thus his chances of taking an INT are higher, if he's in zone because he can't cover man to man, much of the same. Its the same concept. Better stats don't always mean better play. If a player is attacked more they're going to have more tackles, and ints.
That's all well and good for CB's and is a large reason why before this season C-Mac didn't have that many picks, same situation with Newman, but good coverage LB's almost always have int's. Derrick Brooks, widely regarded as one of the best coverage LB's of the era has had int's in every year of his career save one.
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Old 05-28-2007, 12:51 AM    (permalink
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Indeed, but then again he plays in a cover 2 a completely different scheme.
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Old 05-28-2007, 03:31 AM    (permalink
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On the 49ers:

I agree that they're probably ranked a little bit too high... I'd bump both them, and the Bucs down a couple of spots and move the Packers and Panthers up... I think the Eagles are probably too low also. I'd put them closer to 10.

Also, the the poster questioning the Niners LB talent-- SOME 49er fans dislike Derek Smith. Others of us see him for what he is: a consistent, smart tackling machine who isn't the greatest at taking on guards, but in the modern, speed-oriented NFL, few are.

As another poster said, Moore is a pretty underrated guy. Well, not so much underrated as unknown. But he's put up very good stats for SF over the past two years, is big, tough and physical. Lawson, Banta-Cain, and Willis should all see significant playing time as well and have pretty good upsides. Parys Haralson, Colby Bockwoldt, and Jay Moore should all be capable backups. So while I too think the Niners LBs are rated a bit too highly, they are a talented bunch with the potential to eventually live up to their top-5 ranking, depending upon how Willis and Lawson develop.
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Old 05-28-2007, 04:03 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bryanGENE View Post
Courtesy of Sporting News: http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn...c.php?t=212968

What are your views? What team do you believe to have the best LB unit in the NFC? What do you think of the individual LB rank:

1. Brian Urlacher, Bears. He is asked to do many different things in the middle of the cover 2 and is always around the ball.

2. DeMarcus Ware, Cowboys. He is emerging as one of the top young defensive stars in the game, and his best football is still in front of him.

3. Lofa Tatupu, Seahawks. He does not look impressive in pads, but he is a natural leader who makes plays all over the field.

4. Julian Peterson, Seahawks. His tremendous closing speed and rare first step as a pass rusher make him a game-changer.

5. Lance Briggs, Bears. Though he plays in Urlacher's shadow, he is nearly on par in terms of ability.
I know this isn't your list, but I'd definitely put Peterson above Tatupu. In fact, I don't think I'd have Tatupu on here. Peterson at 3 sounds good to me, Briggs at 4 is good.

In looking over a list of the NFC LBs, I'm not sure about #5. After that I see two things--#1 is that there is a real lack of LB talent in the NFC and #2 maybe Tatupu belongs in the top 5 afterall due to the effects of #1.

At the moment, I would debate between Tatupu and Brooks being at #5. Brooks there because he's still good, but he's not his former self. Tatupu would be there more based on potential rather than last year. In fact, I feel that both of them had down years in 2006 compared to 2005. I thought Lofa was a better LB his rookie year and had a bit of a sophomore slump. Maybe that's just me though.
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Old 05-28-2007, 04:23 AM    (permalink
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I'd have Brooking above Tatupu.
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Old 05-28-2007, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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Davis > Hawk

i saw the Patriots-Packers game..Hawk had 13 tackles. But guess what. His tackles were literally 5 yards downfield . He got beat by Watson twice trying to cover him then they let Collins-Poppinga i think try

I've seen a lot of Davis..he was an ex safety..hes fast, strong and kid can hit. Dont look into stats..i can name you a few players with better stats but less real production

Look at Vilma: 113 tackles..and he sucked last year in the 3-4.

I loved when Davis wasnt really a starter his rookie season vs Michael Vick. They kept him in as a spy and Vick did absolutely nothing. The kid chased him from side to side and shut Mike Vick down.
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Old 05-28-2007, 09:08 AM    (permalink
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Which is exactly the point. If he's crap in man coverage he's going to get thrown at more, thus his chances of taking an INT are higher, if he's in zone because he can't cover man to man, much of the same. Its the same concept. Better stats don't always mean better play. If a player is attacked more they're going to have more tackles, and ints.
not necessarily, look at Ray Lewis in his prime for example, people avoided him and he still got near the lead league in tackles.
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Old 05-28-2007, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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49ers at #5 is fair imo. TBC is proven for getting after the QB. Manny has great rush/coverage skills but needs to work on run defense. Patrick Willis is unproven at the moment, but he will surpass Smith for starter easily. Moore is the most underrated LB in the league possibly and does everything great.
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